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View Full Version : VDF/Web App, a competitive advantage?



pkarminsky
13-Jan-2007, 01:39 PM
Hi to all!

Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web applications
myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong competitive
advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from other
developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please join in and
give your thoughts.

In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP Logistics
Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I found some
conclusions:
- These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
market, or the market has few competitors
- It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much more
time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).

In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web presence, and
many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast majority
don't have their information online in real time. Big stores can have online
information about their products, prices, etc., but no one has "real time"
information, like inventory.

Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look in
Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe near
you home), but then they say "please call the store to check existence".
This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's inventory, but one
or two days old! So it seems they could not implement a system to have their
existence in real time.

A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page and
asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount of some
millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?

There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot of
publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but this web
software resides apart from the administrative application, in some host
don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between both
applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have two
islands of information?

Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows administrative
application and the web application? why they don't have online information
in real time? --- that is the question---
Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have their
admin app and web app in their own servers?

I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical supplies,
and I'm developing right now the web part so that their salesmen can have
inventories, prices and customer information on Internet and on their cell
phones. When I look around, I can't find anybody doing the same thing,
except very big software houses and very expensive.

So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated Windows/Web
application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly alone
in the market. Or am I exagerating?

Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an application
(windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in real time
information on Internet, for themselves and their customers? Why don't they?


Please give your comments.

Best wishes to all
Peter

Marco
14-Jan-2007, 06:26 PM
Hi Pedro,

I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
since 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.

I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in any
way.

I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected
to live data are the following:
- They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
- The application database is only very limited accessible to other apps.
- The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
issues by having another 'club' building something that could bring
their application down.

Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible
to the world, if the hacker find the right gap.

Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?

1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database are
held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a COM
object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
access the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.

2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
visual interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like
field validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are
kept.
This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well
as your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed
by two completely separate teams!

The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
were near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument
looses though against the fact that the developers are a very nice
community where everybody is willing to help anybody.

I hope you'll find this useful.

Kind regards,
Marco Kuipers
Adelaide, South Australia.




Pedro Karminsky wrote:
> Hi to all!
>
> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web applications
> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong competitive
> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from other
> developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please join in and
> give your thoughts.
>
> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP Logistics
> Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I found some
> conclusions:
> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
> market, or the market has few competitors
> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much more
> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
>
> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web presence, and
> many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast majority
> don't have their information online in real time. Big stores can have online
> information about their products, prices, etc., but no one has "real time"
> information, like inventory.
>
> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look in
> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe near
> you home), but then they say "please call the store to check existence".
> This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's inventory, but one
> or two days old! So it seems they could not implement a system to have their
> existence in real time.
>
> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page and
> asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount of some
> millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
>
> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot of
> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but this web
> software resides apart from the administrative application, in some host
> don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between both
> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have two
> islands of information?
>
> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows administrative
> application and the web application? why they don't have online information
> in real time? --- that is the question---
> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have their
> admin app and web app in their own servers?
>
> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical supplies,
> and I'm developing right now the web part so that their salesmen can have
> inventories, prices and customer information on Internet and on their cell
> phones. When I look around, I can't find anybody doing the same thing,
> except very big software houses and very expensive.
>
> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated Windows/Web
> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly alone
> in the market. Or am I exagerating?
>
> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an application
> (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in real time
> information on Internet, for themselves and their customers? Why don't they?
>
>
> Please give your comments.
>
> Best wishes to all
> Peter
>
>
>

pkarminsky
15-Jan-2007, 08:03 AM
Hi Marco

Thanks for your reply

I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are "databse
developers" and "web developers".

I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases get
stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database. Am I
right?

It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's another
advantage.

Regards
Peter


"Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
> Hi Pedro,
>
> I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications since
> 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
>
> I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in any
> way.
>
> I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected to
> live data are the following:
> - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
> - The application database is only very limited accessible to other apps.
> - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security issues
> by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
> application down.
>
> Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible to
> the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
>
> Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
>
> 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
> database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database are
> held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
> In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a COM
> object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can access
> the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
>
> 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
> Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a visual
> interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like field
> validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are kept.
> This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well as
> your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
> getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed by
> two completely separate teams!
>
> The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
> marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no were
> near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument looses
> though against the fact that the developers are a very nice community
> where everybody is willing to help anybody.
>
> I hope you'll find this useful.
>
> Kind regards,
> Marco Kuipers
> Adelaide, South Australia.
>
>
>
>
> Pedro Karminsky wrote:
>> Hi to all!
>>
>> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web applications
>> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong competitive
>> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from
>> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please join
>> in and give your thoughts.
>>
>> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
>> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I
>> found some conclusions:
>> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
>> market, or the market has few competitors
>> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much more
>> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
>>
>> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web presence,
>> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
>> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big stores can
>> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no one
>> has "real time" information, like inventory.
>>
>> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look in
>> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe
>> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
>> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
>> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not implement
>> a system to have their existence in real time.
>>
>> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page
>> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount of
>> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
>>
>> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot of
>> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but this
>> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in some
>> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between both
>> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have two
>> islands of information?
>>
>> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows administrative
>> application and the web application? why they don't have online
>> information in real time? --- that is the question---
>> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
>> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have
>> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
>>
>> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
>> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
>> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
>> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
>> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and very
>> expensive.
>>
>> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated Windows/Web
>> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly
>> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
>>
>> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
>> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in
>> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their customers?
>> Why don't they?
>>
>>
>> Please give your comments.
>>
>> Best wishes to all
>> Peter
>>
>>

senatc
15-Jan-2007, 11:17 AM
Hello, Pedro

I think that main reason databases are not live (same here btw, in Russia)
it is only security reasons and I'd count it as reasonable reason to do not
do this. A lot of sites have off-line updates in each X hours, so even if
site hacked, it does not affect real data.

Re WebApp security, I may only add, that yes, it is secure enough, but
anyway, not enough for the securing eg. Bank data or online orders
processing. It is not because it is bad or not good software. It is due to
responsibility on a very important user/customer data.

Eg. one of the largest world banks in the world (Russian representative)
offers On-Line services, which is in fact off-line and it is very noticable
when you wait eg. urgent transfer (payment received and confirmed that
operator can see it, however, on the your on-line account it is shown 3-5
hours later). I believe it is a main rule.


Best regards,
Sergey V. Natarov


"Pedro Karminsky" <pkarminsky@cantv.net> wrote in message
news:2oXGkWKOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> Hi Marco
>
> Thanks for your reply
>
> I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are "databse
> developers" and "web developers".
>
> I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases get
> stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database. Am
I
> right?
>
> It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's another
> advantage.
>
> Regards
> Peter
>
>
> "Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
> news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
> > Hi Pedro,
> >
> > I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
since
> > 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
> >
> > I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in any
> > way.
> >
> > I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected
to
> > live data are the following:
> > - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
> > - The application database is only very limited accessible to other
apps.
> > - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
issues
> > by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
> > application down.
> >
> > Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible
to
> > the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
> >
> > Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
> >
> > 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
> > database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database are
> > held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
> > In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a COM
> > object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
access
> > the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
> >
> > 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
> > Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
visual
> > interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like field
> > validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are kept.
> > This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well
as
> > your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
> > getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed
by
> > two completely separate teams!
> >
> > The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
> > marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
were
> > near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument looses
> > though against the fact that the developers are a very nice community
> > where everybody is willing to help anybody.
> >
> > I hope you'll find this useful.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Marco Kuipers
> > Adelaide, South Australia.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pedro Karminsky wrote:
> >> Hi to all!
> >>
> >> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web
applications
> >> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong
competitive
> >> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from
> >> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please
join
> >> in and give your thoughts.
> >>
> >> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
> >> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I
> >> found some conclusions:
> >> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
> >> market, or the market has few competitors
> >> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much
more
> >> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
> >>
> >> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web presence,
> >> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
> >> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big stores
can
> >> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no one
> >> has "real time" information, like inventory.
> >>
> >> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look
in
> >> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe
> >> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
> >> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
> >> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not
implement
> >> a system to have their existence in real time.
> >>
> >> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page
> >> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount of
> >> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
> >>
> >> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot
of
> >> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but
this
> >> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in some
> >> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between
both
> >> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have two
> >> islands of information?
> >>
> >> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows
administrative
> >> application and the web application? why they don't have online
> >> information in real time? --- that is the question---
> >> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
> >> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have
> >> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
> >>
> >> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
> >> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
> >> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
> >> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
> >> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and very
> >> expensive.
> >>
> >> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated Windows/Web
> >> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly
> >> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
> >>
> >> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
> >> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in
> >> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their customers?
> >> Why don't they?
> >>
> >>
> >> Please give your comments.
> >>
> >> Best wishes to all
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
>

pkarminsky
16-Jan-2007, 11:59 AM
Hi Sergey

Thanks for your observations.

Your comments made me think a lot about security. Mainly because if we can't
have live data on Internet, then we can't do much to speed up many
processes. Or, what's the use of Internet if we can't have data on real
time. So I think there must be a way to deal with this prolem, or else
Internet will be of litle value in many cases.

I checked today with my bank and it works with live data. My daughter used
the debit card and the operation appeared instantly on Internet. So, in this
case, the bank has some solution for having real live data. This kind of
solution is very important because of all we could do with Internet.

AmericanDataStorage I suppose uses live data. (Hope Peter Donovan joins in
the discussion.) I think that eAccounts is live data
http://www.eaccountsglobal.com/, they are ASP, Applications Solution
Provider.

Security issues are very important, but I still think that there are other
causes for not having more web applications (I suppose there should be more
web applications).

As I stated in my first post, I think that there are "development obstacles"
that prevent programmers or developers to build database web applications,
and only big companies with resources can do it. My objective is to make a
list of these possible barriers, with the colaboration of the developers of
this newsgroup.

Some of these barriers are (maybe):
1. Security reasons.
2. Web developer is a different provider than the windows desktop developer
that originally made the system
3. Web developers know a lot about dreamweaver, html, css, etc, but don't
have expertise with databases. Can work with a catalog of products (a simple
database) but can't handle a complete DBMS, with relations, rules, etc.
4. Maybe the existing web tools can't handle properly application databases.
Like Marco said, the other webapplications make direct calls to the
database. And DAW says there's a problem with the "open" part of ODBC.
5. Fear that company's critical information could be accesible to others.

And my point is, if we have a tool that makes it easier and safer to make
web applications, then, for a database developers like us, VDF/Web tools
give us a competitive advantage that we must exploit.

I would like that other developers could collaborate so we can get an idea
of what are really these barriers and if we really have an advantage.

Best wishes
Peter K






"Sergey V. Natarov" <senatc@postman.ru> escribió en el mensaje
news:HgCsVAMOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> Hello, Pedro
>
> I think that main reason databases are not live (same here btw, in Russia)
> it is only security reasons and I'd count it as reasonable reason to do
> not
> do this. A lot of sites have off-line updates in each X hours, so even if
> site hacked, it does not affect real data.
>
> Re WebApp security, I may only add, that yes, it is secure enough, but
> anyway, not enough for the securing eg. Bank data or online orders
> processing. It is not because it is bad or not good software. It is due to
> responsibility on a very important user/customer data.
>
> Eg. one of the largest world banks in the world (Russian representative)
> offers On-Line services, which is in fact off-line and it is very
> noticable
> when you wait eg. urgent transfer (payment received and confirmed that
> operator can see it, however, on the your on-line account it is shown 3-5
> hours later). I believe it is a main rule.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Sergey V. Natarov
>
>
> "Pedro Karminsky" <pkarminsky@cantv.net> wrote in message
> news:2oXGkWKOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> Hi Marco
>>
>> Thanks for your reply
>>
>> I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are "databse
>> developers" and "web developers".
>>
>> I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases
>> get
>> stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database. Am
> I
>> right?
>>
>> It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's
>> another
>> advantage.
>>
>> Regards
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> "Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
>> news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
>> > Hi Pedro,
>> >
>> > I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
> since
>> > 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
>> >
>> > I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in
>> > any
>> > way.
>> >
>> > I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected
> to
>> > live data are the following:
>> > - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
>> > - The application database is only very limited accessible to other
> apps.
>> > - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
> issues
>> > by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
>> > application down.
>> >
>> > Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible
> to
>> > the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
>> >
>> > Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
>> >
>> > 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
>> > database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database
>> > are
>> > held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
>> > In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a
>> > COM
>> > object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
> access
>> > the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
>> >
>> > 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
>> > Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
> visual
>> > interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like field
>> > validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are kept.
>> > This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well
> as
>> > your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
>> > getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed
> by
>> > two completely separate teams!
>> >
>> > The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
>> > marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
> were
>> > near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument
>> > looses
>> > though against the fact that the developers are a very nice community
>> > where everybody is willing to help anybody.
>> >
>> > I hope you'll find this useful.
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> > Marco Kuipers
>> > Adelaide, South Australia.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Pedro Karminsky wrote:
>> >> Hi to all!
>> >>
>> >> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web
> applications
>> >> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong
> competitive
>> >> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from
>> >> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please
> join
>> >> in and give your thoughts.
>> >>
>> >> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
>> >> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I
>> >> found some conclusions:
>> >> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
>> >> market, or the market has few competitors
>> >> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much
> more
>> >> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
>> >>
>> >> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web
>> >> presence,
>> >> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
>> >> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big stores
> can
>> >> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no one
>> >> has "real time" information, like inventory.
>> >>
>> >> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look
> in
>> >> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe
>> >> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
>> >> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
>> >> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not
> implement
>> >> a system to have their existence in real time.
>> >>
>> >> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page
>> >> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount
>> >> of
>> >> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
>> >>
>> >> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot
> of
>> >> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but
> this
>> >> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in
>> >> some
>> >> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between
> both
>> >> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have
>> >> two
>> >> islands of information?
>> >>
>> >> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows
> administrative
>> >> application and the web application? why they don't have online
>> >> information in real time? --- that is the question---
>> >> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
>> >> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have
>> >> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
>> >>
>> >> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
>> >> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
>> >> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
>> >> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
>> >> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and very
>> >> expensive.
>> >>
>> >> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated
>> >> Windows/Web
>> >> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly
>> >> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
>> >>
>> >> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
>> >> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in
>> >> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their customers?
>> >> Why don't they?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Please give your comments.
>> >>
>> >> Best wishes to all
>> >> Peter
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>

pkarminsky
16-Jan-2007, 12:02 PM
Hi Sergey

Thanks for your observations.

Your comments made me think a lot about security. Mainly because if we can't
have live data on Internet, then we can't do much to speed up many
processes. Or, what's the use of Internet if we can't have data on real
time. So I think there must be a way to deal with this prolem, or else
Internet will be of litle value in many cases.

I checked today with my bank and it works with live data. My daughter used
the debit card and the operation appeared instantly on Internet. So, in this
case, the bank has some solution for having real live data. This kind of
solution is very important because of all we could do with Internet.

AmericanDataStorage I suppose uses live data. (Hope Peter Donovan joins in
the discussion.) I think that eAccounts is live data
http://www.eaccountsglobal.com/, they are ASP, Applications Solution
Provider.

Security issues are very important, but I still think that there are other
causes for not having more web applications (I suppose there should be more
web applications).

As I stated in my first post, I think that there are "development obstacles"
that prevent programmers or developers to build database web applications,
and only big companies with resources can do it. My objective is to make a
list of these possible barriers, with the colaboration of the developers of
this newsgroup.

Some of these barriers are (maybe):
1. Security reasons.
2. Web developer is a different provider than the windows desktop developer
that originally made the system
3. Web developers know a lot about dreamweaver, html, css, etc, but don't
have expertise with databases. Can work with a catalog of products (a simple
database) but can't handle a complete DBMS, with relations, rules, etc.
4. Maybe the existing web tools can't handle properly application databases.
Like Marco said, the other webapplications make direct calls to the
database. And DAW says there's a problem with the "open" part of ODBC.
5. Fear that company's critical information could be accesible to others.

And my point is, if we have a tool that makes it easier and safer to make
web applications, then, for a database developers like us, VDF/Web tools
give us a competitive advantage that we must exploit.

I would like that other developers could collaborate so we can get an idea
of what are really these barriers and if we really have an advantage.

Best wishes
Peter K






"Sergey V. Natarov" <senatc@postman.ru> escribió en el mensaje
news:HgCsVAMOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> Hello, Pedro
>
> I think that main reason databases are not live (same here btw, in Russia)
> it is only security reasons and I'd count it as reasonable reason to do
> not
> do this. A lot of sites have off-line updates in each X hours, so even if
> site hacked, it does not affect real data.
>
> Re WebApp security, I may only add, that yes, it is secure enough, but
> anyway, not enough for the securing eg. Bank data or online orders
> processing. It is not because it is bad or not good software. It is due to
> responsibility on a very important user/customer data.
>
> Eg. one of the largest world banks in the world (Russian representative)
> offers On-Line services, which is in fact off-line and it is very
> noticable
> when you wait eg. urgent transfer (payment received and confirmed that
> operator can see it, however, on the your on-line account it is shown 3-5
> hours later). I believe it is a main rule.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Sergey V. Natarov
>
>
> "Pedro Karminsky" <pkarminsky@cantv.net> wrote in message
> news:2oXGkWKOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> Hi Marco
>>
>> Thanks for your reply
>>
>> I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are "databse
>> developers" and "web developers".
>>
>> I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases
>> get
>> stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database. Am
> I
>> right?
>>
>> It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's
>> another
>> advantage.
>>
>> Regards
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> "Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
>> news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
>> > Hi Pedro,
>> >
>> > I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
> since
>> > 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
>> >
>> > I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in
>> > any
>> > way.
>> >
>> > I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected
> to
>> > live data are the following:
>> > - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
>> > - The application database is only very limited accessible to other
> apps.
>> > - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
> issues
>> > by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
>> > application down.
>> >
>> > Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible
> to
>> > the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
>> >
>> > Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
>> >
>> > 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
>> > database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database
>> > are
>> > held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
>> > In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a
>> > COM
>> > object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
> access
>> > the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
>> >
>> > 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
>> > Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
> visual
>> > interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like field
>> > validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are kept.
>> > This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well
> as
>> > your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
>> > getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed
> by
>> > two completely separate teams!
>> >
>> > The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
>> > marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
> were
>> > near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument
>> > looses
>> > though against the fact that the developers are a very nice community
>> > where everybody is willing to help anybody.
>> >
>> > I hope you'll find this useful.
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> > Marco Kuipers
>> > Adelaide, South Australia.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Pedro Karminsky wrote:
>> >> Hi to all!
>> >>
>> >> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web
> applications
>> >> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong
> competitive
>> >> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from
>> >> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please
> join
>> >> in and give your thoughts.
>> >>
>> >> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
>> >> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I
>> >> found some conclusions:
>> >> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
>> >> market, or the market has few competitors
>> >> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much
> more
>> >> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
>> >>
>> >> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web
>> >> presence,
>> >> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
>> >> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big stores
> can
>> >> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no one
>> >> has "real time" information, like inventory.
>> >>
>> >> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look
> in
>> >> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe
>> >> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
>> >> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
>> >> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not
> implement
>> >> a system to have their existence in real time.
>> >>
>> >> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page
>> >> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount
>> >> of
>> >> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
>> >>
>> >> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot
> of
>> >> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but
> this
>> >> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in
>> >> some
>> >> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between
> both
>> >> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have
>> >> two
>> >> islands of information?
>> >>
>> >> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows
> administrative
>> >> application and the web application? why they don't have online
>> >> information in real time? --- that is the question---
>> >> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
>> >> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have
>> >> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
>> >>
>> >> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
>> >> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
>> >> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
>> >> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
>> >> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and very
>> >> expensive.
>> >>
>> >> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated
>> >> Windows/Web
>> >> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly
>> >> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
>> >>
>> >> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
>> >> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in
>> >> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their customers?
>> >> Why don't they?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Please give your comments.
>> >>
>> >> Best wishes to all
>> >> Peter
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>

pkarminsky
16-Jan-2007, 12:04 PM
I had connection problems so this message was repeated.

PK

David Martinko
16-Jan-2007, 04:45 PM
The Solution to security is duplication/replication.
Data can be a one-way road, where you request information and it comes from a copy of the data. SQL can replicate itself so your client can have the real data while the internet works off a copy of the real data.

Additionally, you can look at cloning only the files the internet needs to be exposed to. This way, accountants don't have to worry about sensative numbers getting out by being hacked!

SQL and webapp should never be on the same machine. SQL should be behind a firewall and only accessed via SQL Auth login (NOT WINDOWS AUTH because that can be spoofed or worse if a hacker can gain user level access to the machine.

Your webapp can always update the numbers in the web database... ie QTY ON HAND, but realize that the data is refresh by the real database. So an order can be placed and it is being held by the web database until the real database accesses it and pull that info down. An order is validated and then recorded which updates the QTY on the real data and is sent back to the website. Separating your data into its chore will help protect it.

My 2 cents

=Dave


Pedro Karminsky Wrote:

> Hi Sergey
>
> Thanks for your observations.
>
> Your comments made me think a lot about security. Mainly because if we can't
> have live data on Internet, then we can't do much to speed up many
> processes. Or, what's the use of Internet if we can't have data on real
> time. So I think there must be a way to deal with this prolem, or else
> Internet will be of litle value in many cases.
>
> I checked today with my bank and it works with live data. My daughter used
> the debit card and the operation appeared instantly on Internet. So, in this
> case, the bank has some solution for having real live data. This kind of
> solution is very important because of all we could do with Internet.
>
> AmericanDataStorage I suppose uses live data. (Hope Peter Donovan joins in
> the discussion.) I think that eAccounts is live data
> http://www.eaccountsglobal.com/, they are ASP, Applications Solution
> Provider.
>
> Security issues are very important, but I still think that there are other
> causes for not having more web applications (I suppose there should be more
> web applications).
>
> As I stated in my first post, I think that there are "development obstacles"
> that prevent programmers or developers to build database web applications,
> and only big companies with resources can do it. My objective is to make a
> list of these possible barriers, with the colaboration of the developers of
> this newsgroup.
>
> Some of these barriers are (maybe):
> 1. Security reasons.
> 2. Web developer is a different provider than the windows desktop developer
> that originally made the system
> 3. Web developers know a lot about dreamweaver, html, css, etc, but don't
> have expertise with databases. Can work with a catalog of products (a simple
> database) but can't handle a complete DBMS, with relations, rules, etc.
> 4. Maybe the existing web tools can't handle properly application databases.
> Like Marco said, the other webapplications make direct calls to the
> database. And DAW says there's a problem with the "open" part of ODBC.
> 5. Fear that company's critical information could be accesible to others.
>
> And my point is, if we have a tool that makes it easier and safer to make
> web applications, then, for a database developers like us, VDF/Web tools
> give us a competitive advantage that we must exploit.
>
> I would like that other developers could collaborate so we can get an idea
> of what are really these barriers and if we really have an advantage.
>
> Best wishes
> Peter K
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Sergey V. Natarov" <senatc@postman.ru> escribió en el mensaje
> news:HgCsVAMOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> > Hello, Pedro
> >
> > I think that main reason databases are not live (same here btw, in Russia)
> > it is only security reasons and I'd count it as reasonable reason to do
> > not
> > do this. A lot of sites have off-line updates in each X hours, so even if
> > site hacked, it does not affect real data.
> >
> > Re WebApp security, I may only add, that yes, it is secure enough, but
> > anyway, not enough for the securing eg. Bank data or online orders
> > processing. It is not because it is bad or not good software. It is due to
> > responsibility on a very important user/customer data.
> >
> > Eg. one of the largest world banks in the world (Russian representative)
> > offers On-Line services, which is in fact off-line and it is very
> > noticable
> > when you wait eg. urgent transfer (payment received and confirmed that
> > operator can see it, however, on the your on-line account it is shown 3-5
> > hours later). I believe it is a main rule.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Sergey V. Natarov
> >
> >
> > "Pedro Karminsky" <pkarminsky@cantv.net> wrote in message
> > news:2oXGkWKOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> >> Hi Marco
> >>
> >> Thanks for your reply
> >>
> >> I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are "databse
> >> developers" and "web developers".
> >>
> >> I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases
> >> get
> >> stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database. Am
> > I
> >> right?
> >>
> >> It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's
> >> another
> >> advantage.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> "Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
> >> news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
> >> > Hi Pedro,
> >> >
> >> > I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
> > since
> >> > 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
> >> >
> >> > I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in
> >> > any
> >> > way.
> >> >
> >> > I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected
> > to
> >> > live data are the following:
> >> > - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
> >> > - The application database is only very limited accessible to other
> > apps.
> >> > - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
> > issues
> >> > by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
> >> > application down.
> >> >
> >> > Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible
> > to
> >> > the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
> >> >
> >> > 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
> >> > database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database
> >> > are
> >> > held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
> >> > In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a
> >> > COM
> >> > object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
> > access
> >> > the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
> >> >
> >> > 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
> >> > Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
> > visual
> >> > interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like field
> >> > validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are kept.
> >> > This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well
> > as
> >> > your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
> >> > getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed
> > by
> >> > two completely separate teams!
> >> >
> >> > The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
> >> > marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
> > were
> >> > near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument
> >> > looses
> >> > though against the fact that the developers are a very nice community
> >> > where everybody is willing to help anybody.
> >> >
> >> > I hope you'll find this useful.
> >> >
> >> > Kind regards,
> >> > Marco Kuipers
> >> > Adelaide, South Australia.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Pedro Karminsky wrote:
> >> >> Hi to all!
> >> >>
> >> >> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web
> > applications
> >> >> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong
> > competitive
> >> >> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from
> >> >> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please
> > join
> >> >> in and give your thoughts.
> >> >>
> >> >> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
> >> >> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I
> >> >> found some conclusions:
> >> >> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
> >> >> market, or the market has few competitors
> >> >> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much
> > more
> >> >> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
> >> >>
> >> >> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web
> >> >> presence,
> >> >> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
> >> >> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big stores
> > can
> >> >> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no one
> >> >> has "real time" information, like inventory.
> >> >>
> >> >> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look
> > in
> >> >> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe
> >> >> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
> >> >> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
> >> >> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not
> > implement
> >> >> a system to have their existence in real time.
> >> >>
> >> >> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page
> >> >> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount
> >> >> of
> >> >> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
> >> >>
> >> >> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot
> > of
> >> >> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but
> > this
> >> >> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in
> >> >> some
> >> >> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between
> > both
> >> >> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have
> >> >> two
> >> >> islands of information?
> >> >>
> >> >> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows
> > administrative
> >> >> application and the web application? why they don't have online
> >> >> information in real time? --- that is the question---
> >> >> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
> >> >> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have
> >> >> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
> >> >> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
> >> >> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
> >> >> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
> >> >> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and very
> >> >> expensive.
> >> >>
> >> >> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated
> >> >> Windows/Web
> >> >> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly
> >> >> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
> >> >>
> >> >> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
> >> >> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in
> >> >> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their customers?
> >> >> Why don't they?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Please give your comments.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best wishes to all
> >> >> Peter
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

Peter A Donovan
16-Jan-2007, 04:54 PM
Hi, since American Data Storage was mentioned, I thought I'd share my setup:

Live System Server --> WebAppServer

A subset of live data lives on the webapp server with a BPO to xfer the live
data to webapp server anytime they need to. Pick Tickets are printed and
they manually update (scanners soon) the live data as (gone/sent) and then
re-transfer the information to the webapp server whenever need be.
--
Regards,
Peter
Applause Software, http://www.ApplauseSoftware.Com
Northeast DataFlex Consortium Member: www.NEDataFlex.Com

Peter A Donovan
16-Jan-2007, 04:59 PM
There is another Webapp the NEDC has where the live data is updated in real
time from a webapp server, but the connection and whereabouts of the table
in the filelist is hidden in the ws file. No pathing info in the filelist
or anywhere else. We purposely put up a webapp server with data on it plus
an interface to the live data thru the ws pathing so as to discourage and
hide pathing from hackers and I am not the network architect so I cannot
speak for the firewall situation, but so far so good.

--
Regards,
Peter
Applause Software, http://www.ApplauseSoftware.Com
Northeast DataFlex Consortium Member: www.NEDataFlex.Com

Marco
16-Jan-2007, 06:54 PM
Hi,

We, National Credit Insurance in Australia, have our Live database
available via WebApp to our customers since 1999.

Https is forced on them, but no IP range checking, certificates etc.

The security lies in the fact that the IIS server, is in the DMZ. No SQL
insertion can take place as it is using WebApp. The credentials to the
DB2 server are compiled into the WebApp.exe and the port used is a non
standard one and the only hole in the firewall from the DMZ to the
internal network.

So even if a hacker gets on the Web server's command prompt (your worst
attack), they cannot locate the SQL credentials other than decompiling
the webapp.exe (extremely unlikely), while in the other web products
where the SQL statements are in the server side code, there is always a
script file with the SQL credentials, and are able to change your data
as far as the credentials allow.

Touch wood, but we never had has any unscheduled downtime in the last
7.5 years!!!

Kind regards,
Marco

Peter A Donovan wrote:
> There is another Webapp the NEDC has where the live data is updated in real
> time from a webapp server, but the connection and whereabouts of the table
> in the filelist is hidden in the ws file. No pathing info in the filelist
> or anywhere else. We purposely put up a webapp server with data on it plus
> an interface to the live data thru the ws pathing so as to discourage and
> hide pathing from hackers and I am not the network architect so I cannot
> speak for the firewall situation, but so far so good.
>

Garret Mott
16-Jan-2007, 07:13 PM
> I am not the network architect so I cannot speak for the firewall
> situation, but so far so good.

Hardware firewall - don't know the brand but it cost about $1500 in late
2005. I could find out if enquiring minds would like to know....

Garret Mott

Auto-Mate Software www.automatesoftware.com
Northeast DataFlex Consortium www.nedataflex.com

wila
17-Jan-2007, 06:43 AM
PMJI, but webapp is not secure.
It's perceived as being secure because of something called "security by
obscurity"

One thing about the webapp model is pretty good. The most common and
easy web application attacks are based on something called SQL
injections. Webapp is not vulnerable from this as any of the database
communications (when using SQL) is handled by the executable. No direct
connections from http to the database are allowed.

Besides that it is very easy to extract nearly anything from a webapp or
save about anything you like. There are boundaries, but if you know how
the framework works... not that many.
As usual it also depends on the developer.

For details on how to hack a webapp? Oliver showed that during a
presentation in the past, i'm not going to disclose that information in
a public group here.

==
Wil

Pedro Karminsky wrote:
> Hi Sergey
>
> Thanks for your observations.
>
> Your comments made me think a lot about security. Mainly because if we can't
> have live data on Internet, then we can't do much to speed up many
> processes. Or, what's the use of Internet if we can't have data on real
> time. So I think there must be a way to deal with this prolem, or else
> Internet will be of litle value in many cases.
>
> I checked today with my bank and it works with live data. My daughter used
> the debit card and the operation appeared instantly on Internet. So, in this
> case, the bank has some solution for having real live data. This kind of
> solution is very important because of all we could do with Internet.
>
> AmericanDataStorage I suppose uses live data. (Hope Peter Donovan joins in
> the discussion.) I think that eAccounts is live data
> http://www.eaccountsglobal.com/, they are ASP, Applications Solution
> Provider.
>
> Security issues are very important, but I still think that there are other
> causes for not having more web applications (I suppose there should be more
> web applications).
>
> As I stated in my first post, I think that there are "development obstacles"
> that prevent programmers or developers to build database web applications,
> and only big companies with resources can do it. My objective is to make a
> list of these possible barriers, with the colaboration of the developers of
> this newsgroup.
>
> Some of these barriers are (maybe):
> 1. Security reasons.
> 2. Web developer is a different provider than the windows desktop developer
> that originally made the system
> 3. Web developers know a lot about dreamweaver, html, css, etc, but don't
> have expertise with databases. Can work with a catalog of products (a simple
> database) but can't handle a complete DBMS, with relations, rules, etc.
> 4. Maybe the existing web tools can't handle properly application databases.
> Like Marco said, the other webapplications make direct calls to the
> database. And DAW says there's a problem with the "open" part of ODBC.
> 5. Fear that company's critical information could be accesible to others.
>
> And my point is, if we have a tool that makes it easier and safer to make
> web applications, then, for a database developers like us, VDF/Web tools
> give us a competitive advantage that we must exploit.
>
> I would like that other developers could collaborate so we can get an idea
> of what are really these barriers and if we really have an advantage.
>
> Best wishes
> Peter K
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Sergey V. Natarov" <senatc@postman.ru> escribió en el mensaje
> news:HgCsVAMOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> Hello, Pedro
>>
>> I think that main reason databases are not live (same here btw, in Russia)
>> it is only security reasons and I'd count it as reasonable reason to do
>> not
>> do this. A lot of sites have off-line updates in each X hours, so even if
>> site hacked, it does not affect real data.
>>
>> Re WebApp security, I may only add, that yes, it is secure enough, but
>> anyway, not enough for the securing eg. Bank data or online orders
>> processing. It is not because it is bad or not good software. It is due to
>> responsibility on a very important user/customer data.
>>
>> Eg. one of the largest world banks in the world (Russian representative)
>> offers On-Line services, which is in fact off-line and it is very
>> noticable
>> when you wait eg. urgent transfer (payment received and confirmed that
>> operator can see it, however, on the your on-line account it is shown 3-5
>> hours later). I believe it is a main rule.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Sergey V. Natarov
>>
>>
>> "Pedro Karminsky" <pkarminsky@cantv.net> wrote in message
>> news:2oXGkWKOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>>> Hi Marco
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply
>>>
>>> I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are "databse
>>> developers" and "web developers".
>>>
>>> I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases
>>> get
>>> stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database. Am
>> I
>>> right?
>>>
>>> It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's
>>> another
>>> advantage.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> "Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
>>> news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
>>>> Hi Pedro,
>>>>
>>>> I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
>> since
>>>> 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
>>>>
>>>> I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in
>>>> any
>>>> way.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the reason that many online applications are not connected
>> to
>>>> live data are the following:
>>>> - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different provider
>>>> - The application database is only very limited accessible to other
>> apps.
>>>> - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
>> issues
>>>> by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
>>>> application down.
>>>>
>>>> Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is accessible
>> to
>>>> the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
>>>>
>>>> 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
>>>> database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database
>>>> are
>>>> held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
>>>> In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a
>>>> COM
>>>> object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
>> access
>>>> the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
>>>>
>>>> 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
>>>> Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
>> visual
>>>> interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like field
>>>> validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are kept.
>>>> This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as well
>> as
>>>> your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
>>>> getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are developed
>> by
>>>> two completely separate teams!
>>>>
>>>> The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
>>>> marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
>> were
>>>> near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument
>>>> looses
>>>> though against the fact that the developers are a very nice community
>>>> where everybody is willing to help anybody.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you'll find this useful.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Marco Kuipers
>>>> Adelaide, South Australia.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pedro Karminsky wrote:
>>>>> Hi to all!
>>>>>
>>>>> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web
>> applications
>>>>> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong
>> competitive
>>>>> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback from
>>>>> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please
>> join
>>>>> in and give your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
>>>>> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web app, I
>>>>> found some conclusions:
>>>>> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on the
>>>>> market, or the market has few competitors
>>>>> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much
>> more
>>>>> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
>>>>>
>>>>> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web
>>>>> presence,
>>>>> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
>>>>> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big stores
>> can
>>>>> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no one
>>>>> has "real time" information, like inventory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can look
>> in
>>>>> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store (maybe
>>>>> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
>>>>> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
>>>>> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not
>> implement
>>>>> a system to have their existence in real time.
>>>>>
>>>>> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web page
>>>>> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an amount
>>>>> of
>>>>> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a lot
>> of
>>>>> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but
>> this
>>>>> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in
>>>>> some
>>>>> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information between
>> both
>>>>> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have
>>>>> two
>>>>> islands of information?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows
>> administrative
>>>>> application and the web application? why they don't have online
>>>>> information in real time? --- that is the question---
>>>>> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
>>>>> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that have
>>>>> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
>>>>> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
>>>>> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
>>>>> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
>>>>> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and very
>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated
>>>>> Windows/Web
>>>>> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are nearly
>>>>> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
>>>>>
>>>>> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
>>>>> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and in
>>>>> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their customers?
>>>>> Why don't they?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please give your comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes to all
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
>

Chuck Atkinson
17-Jan-2007, 01:02 PM
"David Martinko" <RedeemedSoftware@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7%239xnebOHHA.3744@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> The Solution to security is duplication/replication.
> Data can be a one-way road, where you request information and it comes
> from a copy of the data. SQL can replicate itself so your client can have
> the real data while the internet works off a copy of the real data.
>
> Additionally, you can look at cloning only the files the internet needs to
> be exposed to. This way, accountants don't have to worry about sensative
> numbers getting out by being hacked!
>
> SQL and webapp should never be on the same machine. SQL should be behind a
> firewall and only accessed via SQL Auth login (NOT WINDOWS AUTH because
> that can be spoofed or worse if a hacker can gain user level access to the
> machine.
>
> Your webapp can always update the numbers in the web database... ie QTY ON
> HAND, but realize that the data is refresh by the real database. So an
> order can be placed and it is being held by the web database until the
> real database accesses it and pull that info down. An order is validated
> and then recorded which updates the QTY on the real data and is sent back
> to the website. Separating your data into its chore will help protect it.
>
> My 2 cents
>
> =Dave
>
>
> Pedro Karminsky Wrote:
>
>> Hi Sergey
>>
>> Thanks for your observations.
>>
>> Your comments made me think a lot about security. Mainly because if we
>> can't
>> have live data on Internet, then we can't do much to speed up many
>> processes. Or, what's the use of Internet if we can't have data on real
>> time. So I think there must be a way to deal with this prolem, or else
>> Internet will be of litle value in many cases.
>>
>> I checked today with my bank and it works with live data. My daughter
>> used
>> the debit card and the operation appeared instantly on Internet. So, in
>> this
>> case, the bank has some solution for having real live data. This kind of
>> solution is very important because of all we could do with Internet.
>>
>> AmericanDataStorage I suppose uses live data. (Hope Peter Donovan joins
>> in
>> the discussion.) I think that eAccounts is live data
>> http://www.eaccountsglobal.com/, they are ASP, Applications Solution
>> Provider.
>>
>> Security issues are very important, but I still think that there are
>> other
>> causes for not having more web applications (I suppose there should be
>> more
>> web applications).
>>
>> As I stated in my first post, I think that there are "development
>> obstacles"
>> that prevent programmers or developers to build database web
>> applications,
>> and only big companies with resources can do it. My objective is to make
>> a
>> list of these possible barriers, with the colaboration of the developers
>> of
>> this newsgroup.
>>
>> Some of these barriers are (maybe):
>> 1. Security reasons.
>> 2. Web developer is a different provider than the windows desktop
>> developer
>> that originally made the system
>> 3. Web developers know a lot about dreamweaver, html, css, etc, but don't
>> have expertise with databases. Can work with a catalog of products (a
>> simple
>> database) but can't handle a complete DBMS, with relations, rules, etc.
>> 4. Maybe the existing web tools can't handle properly application
>> databases.
>> Like Marco said, the other webapplications make direct calls to the
>> database. And DAW says there's a problem with the "open" part of ODBC.
>> 5. Fear that company's critical information could be accesible to others.
>>
>> And my point is, if we have a tool that makes it easier and safer to make
>> web applications, then, for a database developers like us, VDF/Web tools
>> give us a competitive advantage that we must exploit.
>>
>> I would like that other developers could collaborate so we can get an
>> idea
>> of what are really these barriers and if we really have an advantage.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Peter K
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Sergey V. Natarov" <senatc@postman.ru> escribió en el mensaje
>> news:HgCsVAMOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> > Hello, Pedro
>> >
>> > I think that main reason databases are not live (same here btw, in
>> > Russia)
>> > it is only security reasons and I'd count it as reasonable reason to do
>> > not
>> > do this. A lot of sites have off-line updates in each X hours, so even
>> > if
>> > site hacked, it does not affect real data.
>> >
>> > Re WebApp security, I may only add, that yes, it is secure enough, but
>> > anyway, not enough for the securing eg. Bank data or online orders
>> > processing. It is not because it is bad or not good software. It is due
>> > to
>> > responsibility on a very important user/customer data.
>> >
>> > Eg. one of the largest world banks in the world (Russian
>> > representative)
>> > offers On-Line services, which is in fact off-line and it is very
>> > noticable
>> > when you wait eg. urgent transfer (payment received and confirmed that
>> > operator can see it, however, on the your on-line account it is shown
>> > 3-5
>> > hours later). I believe it is a main rule.
>> >
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Sergey V. Natarov
>> >
>> >
>> > "Pedro Karminsky" <pkarminsky@cantv.net> wrote in message
>> > news:2oXGkWKOHHA.1464@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> >> Hi Marco
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for your reply
>> >>
>> >> I can deduct from your observations that it seems like there are
>> >> "databse
>> >> developers" and "web developers".
>> >>
>> >> I found too that "web developers" when they get to work with databases
>> >> get
>> >> stuck. I think that they mostly work with a simple "catalog" database.
>> >> Am
>> > I
>> >> right?
>> >>
>> >> It's easier to a database developer learn web development, so it's
>> >> another
>> >> advantage.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Peter
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
>> >> news:45AABC14.5040601@nci.com.au...
>> >> > Hi Pedro,
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm a IT Project Manager have build and managed WebApp applications
>> > since
>> >> > 1999 and VDF windows applications since the very beginning 96ish.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'll try to give you my opinion, but do not claim to be an expert in
>> >> > any
>> >> > way.
>> >> >
>> >> > I think that the reason that many online applications are not
>> >> > connected
>> > to
>> >> > live data are the following:
>> >> > - They are build as an afterthought, often using a different
>> >> > provider
>> >> > - The application database is only very limited accessible to other
>> > apps.
>> >> > - The backoffice application builder, does not want added security
>> > issues
>> >> > by having another 'club' building something that could bring their
>> >> > application down.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tipically accounting persons are afraid that their system is
>> >> > accessible
>> > to
>> >> > the world, if the hacker find the right gap.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, why do I think that this effects VDF/WebApp less?
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. Most if not all other webapplications make direct calls to the
>> >> > database. That means that the credentials for accessing the database
>> >> > are
>> >> > held on the Internet server. In Webapp, this is not the case!
>> >> > In webapp the Internet server only talks with exposed functions of a
>> >> > COM
>> >> > object (webapp.exe). This COM object, is the only program that can
>> > access
>> >> > the data direct, and therefore much much more safe.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2. With VDF/WebApp all saves, deletes, queries etc are done via Data
>> >> > Dictionaries. These are class files created and maintained using a
>> > visual
>> >> > interface (DBBuilder) where hundreds of rules for the data like
>> >> > field
>> >> > validations, default values, updates of other tables etc etc, are
>> >> > kept.
>> >> > This data dictionary layer is used by your windows applications as
>> >> > well
>> > as
>> >> > your web applications. This means that the RISK of the applications
>> >> > getting out of sync is almost non existent. Even if they are
>> >> > developed
>> > by
>> >> > two completely separate teams!
>> >> >
>> >> > The only draw back for using DataAccess tools is that not that the
>> >> > marketing is not as strong and therefore the number of developers no
>> > were
>> >> > near as high as when the news would spread further. This argument
>> >> > looses
>> >> > though against the fact that the developers are a very nice
>> >> > community
>> >> > where everybody is willing to help anybody.
>> >> >
>> >> > I hope you'll find this useful.
>> >> >
>> >> > Kind regards,
>> >> > Marco Kuipers
>> >> > Adelaide, South Australia.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Pedro Karminsky wrote:
>> >> >> Hi to all!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Having read some success stories and starting to develop Web
>> > applications
>> >> >> myself, I came to a point where I think we may have a strong
>> > competitive
>> >> >> advantage using DAW development tools. But I would like feedback
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> other developers and determine if I'm in the right track. So please
>> > join
>> >> >> in and give your thoughts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the cases of Applause Software / AmericanDataStorege, ICECORP
>> >> >> Logistics Group, Downes-Martino Systems property management web
>> >> >> app, I
>> >> >> found some conclusions:
>> >> >> - These success stories indicate that their software gets first on
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> market, or the market has few competitors
>> >> >> - It seems like it is very difficult ( a "nightmare") or takes much
>> > more
>> >> >> time to develop web software using other tools (.NET, VB).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In my country, Venezuela, we have a lot of companies with web
>> >> >> presence,
>> >> >> and many with some online information, like the banks. But the vast
>> >> >> majority don't have their information online in real time. Big
>> >> >> stores
>> > can
>> >> >> have online information about their products, prices, etc., but no
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> has "real time" information, like inventory.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Example: There's a chain of drug stores (pharmacies) that you can
>> >> >> look
>> > in
>> >> >> Internet and find if they have some product, and in what store
>> >> >> (maybe
>> >> >> near you home), but then they say "please call the store to check
>> >> >> existence". This same drug store chain one year ago was giving it's
>> >> >> inventory, but one or two days old! So it seems they could not
>> > implement
>> >> >> a system to have their existence in real time.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A supermarket offers buying thru Internet. So I went to their web
>> >> >> page
>> >> >> and asked for 10,000 kilos of salmon, and my basket showed an
>> >> >> amount
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> some millions of Bolivars (our currency)!. Got the idea?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There's a popular administrative software (Profit Plus) that has a
>> >> >> lot
>> > of
>> >> >> publicity, and they offer (apart) a web application (ebusiness) but
>> > this
>> >> >> web software resides apart from the administrative application, in
>> >> >> some
>> >> >> host don't know where, and they must sinchronyze information
>> >> >> between
>> > both
>> >> >> applications. So where's the real advantage ogf Internet if we have
>> >> >> two
>> >> >> islands of information?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why there's no software that integrates both, the windows
>> > administrative
>> >> >> application and the web application? why they don't have online
>> >> >> information in real time? --- that is the question---
>> >> >> Why do they have their application in company's place and the Web
>> >> >> application in another place? Why there are so few companies that
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> their admin app and web app in their own servers?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm implementing a system for a company that distributes medical
>> >> >> supplies, and I'm developing right now the web part so that their
>> >> >> salesmen can have inventories, prices and customer information on
>> >> >> Internet and on their cell phones. When I look around, I can't find
>> >> >> anybody doing the same thing, except very big software houses and
>> >> >> very
>> >> >> expensive.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So my conclusion would be that we can develop an integrated
>> >> >> Windows/Web
>> >> >> application faster and cheaper than the competition, and we are
>> >> >> nearly
>> >> >> alone in the market. Or am I exagerating?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Putting it the other way: shouln't every company by now have an
>> >> >> application (windows and web) on their servers, and have online and
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> real time information on Internet, for themselves and their
>> >> >> customers?
>> >> >> Why don't they?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please give your comments.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best wishes to all
>> >> >> Peter
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

I've just spent some agonizing weeks getting the Enterprise version of Web
App server running here (thanks Sonny and Wil). Now that it is running, I
believe it is the ultimate in security. We also have some .NET web
applications hitting SQL databases in our system. The VDF Entreprise web
application security is way BETTER than anything VB.NET/ASP/IIS/SQL can
provide today.

We are accessing native-dataflex files with our web app so there is NO
connection strings embedded in any ASP page, unlike most MS-driven web
applications. There are no data files on the public server. Our dataflex
files are behind a very stout firewall, vitually impenetrable from hackers.

Just my thoughts...
Chuck Atkinson

Mark Rutherford
17-Jan-2007, 03:12 PM
This one?

http://www.barracudanetworks.com

Only issue I have seen with these firewalls are clueless admins.
Otherwise, good firewalls.
I think they are about $1500

Garret Mott wrote:
>> I am not the network architect so I cannot speak for the firewall
>> situation, but so far so good.
>
> Hardware firewall - don't know the brand but it cost about $1500 in late
> 2005. I could find out if enquiring minds would like to know....
>
> Garret Mott
>
> Auto-Mate Software www.automatesoftware.com
> Northeast DataFlex Consortium www.nedataflex.com
>
>

JimNC9
18-Jan-2007, 02:00 PM
Also look at http://watchguard.com/


Jim /*
Advanced Designs, Inc.
www.advanceddesignsinc.com


"Mark Rutherford" <mark@maunzelectronics.com> wrote in message
news:SV91cPnOHHA.5504@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> This one?
>
> http://www.barracudanetworks.com
>
> Only issue I have seen with these firewalls are clueless admins.
> Otherwise, good firewalls.
> I think they are about $1500
>
> Garret Mott wrote:
>>> I am not the network architect so I cannot speak for the firewall
>>> situation, but so far so good.
>>
>> Hardware firewall - don't know the brand but it cost about $1500 in late
>> 2005. I could find out if enquiring minds would like to know....
>>
>> Garret Mott
>>
>> Auto-Mate Software www.automatesoftware.com
>> Northeast DataFlex Consortium www.nedataflex.com
>>

Larry R Pint
19-Jan-2007, 10:57 AM
At National Truck Underwriting Managers we are using Astaro. It has won
several awards, etc. and was the first to achieve compliance with the new
"Common Criteria" standard. www.astaro.com

Larry Pint

"Jim Ward" <jward@advanceddesignsinc.com> wrote in message
news:juEZZLzOHHA.5504@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> Also look at http://watchguard.com/
>
>
> Jim /*
> Advanced Designs, Inc.
> www.advanceddesignsinc.com
>
>
> "Mark Rutherford" <mark@maunzelectronics.com> wrote in message
> news:SV91cPnOHHA.5504@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> This one?
>>
>> http://www.barracudanetworks.com
>>
>> Only issue I have seen with these firewalls are clueless admins.
>> Otherwise, good firewalls.
>> I think they are about $1500
>>
>> Garret Mott wrote:
>>>> I am not the network architect so I cannot speak for the firewall
>>>> situation, but so far so good.
>>>
>>> Hardware firewall - don't know the brand but it cost about $1500 in late
>>> 2005. I could find out if enquiring minds would like to know....
>>>
>>> Garret Mott
>>>
>>> Auto-Mate Software www.automatesoftware.com
>>> Northeast DataFlex Consortium www.nedataflex.com
>>>
>