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Marco
7-Aug-2008, 06:45 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...

I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.

Currently the categories are:

PHP
MySQL
Website Design
Graphic Design
Flash
CSS
Script Installation
Ajax
SEO
Javascript
Marketing
Writing
Data Entry
XHTML
Java
XML
C/C++
Multimedia
ASP
..NET
Joomla
Perl/CGI
CMS
Plus more...

I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
compare the right way).

Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
- Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.

Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating an
installer etc etc.

Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us,
and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming cheap,
as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot of Indian
and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees charging $15 per
hour), see these projects go for higher amounts, they will download VDF
and play with it and bid for projects...
This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
bring costs down for .net development houses.

Please let me know your opinion about this.

Cheers,
Marco

Roel Westhoff [W4]
2-Sep-2008, 08:29 AM
Hello Marco,

I've checked out the website. It looks like a good place to post projects. I
had a look at the sort of projects are posted and the prices our indian
colleges ask for it.
Really competative (in fact pretty cheap) if i compare it with whatever we
do in the west. An eye-opener. I've created an account and try to post a
project but this not possible. Visual Dataflex is not (well) known in India
and is not an programming option (yet). I've asked if it is possible to add
visual dataflex to the programming options but apart from a reaction to my
posting 'we will consider it..' nothing has happened. I guess if more visual
dataflex developers take an account (free) and do a request to add Visual
Dataflex to the programming options it would help a lot.

So ... everyone who reads this message. Do some investing in promoting
Visual Dataflex in India. Take an account and flood the webmaster with
questions to add visual dataflex to the programming options.

And for those of you that hesitate because our indian collegas are a lot
cheaper and you see them as competators. Consider this. You can actually
benefit from this. If you invest time in a relation with one or more
software engineers in the east you're 'product' (standard or one-off) has a
really competative edge (cheaper) agains you're local western competators
(aka .Net, Java etc,etc.)

Marco, As i said before. Promoting Visual Dataflex in the east could be
advantageous to us all.

Roel Westhoff
W4 Software & Consultancy BV
Weert Netherlands


"Marco Kuipers" <marco.kuipers@nci.com.au> wrote in message
news:ObERkeO%23IHA.5388@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>
> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>
> Currently the categories are:
>
> PHP
> MySQL
> Website Design
> Graphic Design
> Flash
> CSS
> Script Installation
> Ajax
> SEO
> Javascript
> Marketing
> Writing
> Data Entry
> XHTML
> Java
> XML
> C/C++
> Multimedia
> ASP
> .NET
> Joomla
> Perl/CGI
> CMS
> Plus more...
>
> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
> Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
> studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
> compare the right way).
>
> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>
> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to solve
> for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating an
> installer etc etc.
>
> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us, and
> the programmers are too. This is not making the programming cheap, as most
> of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot of Indian and other
> Asian programmers, with double IT degrees charging $15 per hour), see
> these projects go for higher amounts, they will download VDF and play with
> it and bid for projects...
> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
> bring costs down for .net development houses.
>
> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>
> Cheers,
> Marco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pepe
3-Sep-2008, 02:02 AM
Interesting.

We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.

To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/

Regards

Pepe

Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>
> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>
> Currently the categories are:
>
> PHP
> MySQL
> Website Design
> Graphic Design
> Flash
> CSS
> Script Installation
> Ajax
> SEO
> Javascript
> Marketing
> Writing
> Data Entry
> XHTML
> Java
> XML
> C/C++
> Multimedia
> ASP
> .NET
> Joomla
> Perl/CGI
> CMS
> Plus more...
>
> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
> Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
> studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
> compare the right way).
>
> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>
> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating
> an installer etc etc.
>
> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us,
> and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming cheap,
> as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot of Indian
> and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees charging $15 per
> hour), see these projects go for higher amounts, they will download
> VDF and play with it and bid for projects...
> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
> bring costs down for .net development houses.
>
> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>
> Cheers,
> Marco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

wila
3-Sep-2008, 02:59 AM
Just looked and this was how the first project description I clicked on
started.....
http://www.scriptlance.com/projects/1220412469.shtml
<quote>
THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I'M POSTING THIS PROJECT. EVERY TIME I CHOOSE A
"WINNER", THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION TO
COMMUNICATE....AND I CANCEL THE PROJECT. IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE ON AT
LEAST A BI-WEEKLY BASIS, DON'T WASTE YOUR (OR MY) TIME BIDDING!!! ALSO,
READ THE ATTACHED PRIMER! IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY!

CONFIDENTIALITY AND NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT

BY READING AND/OR BIDDING ON THIS PROJECT AND/OR IT'S ATTACHMENT(S), YOU
AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:

WHEREAS, Smith Utilities yadda yadda...
</quote>

Well I value my time better as that. It does completely follow my
expectations, as in you get what you pay for. Wish you all lots of luck
with finding the "el cheapo" professional visual dataflex developers.
Sounds to me like the proverbial needle in a haystack.

--
Wil


Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
> Interesting.
>
> We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.
>
> To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/
>
> Regards
>
> Pepe
>
> Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:
>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>>
>> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
>> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>>
>> Currently the categories are:
>>
>> PHP
>> MySQL
>> Website Design
>> Graphic Design
>> Flash
>> CSS
>> Script Installation
>> Ajax
>> SEO
>> Javascript
>> Marketing
>> Writing
>> Data Entry
>> XHTML
>> Java
>> XML
>> C/C++
>> Multimedia
>> ASP
>> .NET
>> Joomla
>> Perl/CGI
>> CMS
>> Plus more...
>>
>> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
>> Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
>> studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
>> compare the right way).
>>
>> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
>> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>>
>> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
>> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating
>> an installer etc etc.
>>
>> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us,
>> and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming cheap,
>> as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot of Indian
>> and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees charging $15 per
>> hour), see these projects go for higher amounts, they will download
>> VDF and play with it and bid for projects...
>> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
>> bring costs down for .net development houses.
>>
>> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Marco
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Pepe
3-Sep-2008, 03:21 AM
To expose VDF and get developers to know/hear/read about it it's free
(cheaper than "cheapo" :-) )

Pepe

Wil van Antwerpen dijo lo siguiente el 03/09/2008 9:59:

> Just looked and this was how the first project description I clicked
> on started.....
> http://www.scriptlance.com/projects/1220412469.shtml
> <quote>
> THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I'M POSTING THIS PROJECT. EVERY TIME I
> CHOOSE A "WINNER", THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION TO
> COMMUNICATE....AND I CANCEL THE PROJECT. IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE ON
> AT LEAST A BI-WEEKLY BASIS, DON'T WASTE YOUR (OR MY) TIME BIDDING!!!
> ALSO, READ THE ATTACHED PRIMER! IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY!
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY AND NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
>
> BY READING AND/OR BIDDING ON THIS PROJECT AND/OR IT'S ATTACHMENT(S),
> YOU AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:
>
> WHEREAS, Smith Utilities yadda yadda...
> </quote>
>
> Well I value my time better as that. It does completely follow my
> expectations, as in you get what you pay for. Wish you all lots of
> luck with finding the "el cheapo" professional visual dataflex
> developers. Sounds to me like the proverbial needle in a haystack.
>
> --
> Wil
>
>
> Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.
>>
>> To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Pepe
>>
>> Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:
>>
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>>>
>>> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
>>> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>>>
>>> Currently the categories are:
>>>
>>> PHP
>>> MySQL
>>> Website Design
>>> Graphic Design
>>> Flash
>>> CSS
>>> Script Installation
>>> Ajax
>>> SEO
>>> Javascript
>>> Marketing
>>> Writing
>>> Data Entry
>>> XHTML
>>> Java
>>> XML
>>> C/C++
>>> Multimedia
>>> ASP
>>> .NET
>>> Joomla
>>> Perl/CGI
>>> CMS
>>> Plus more...
>>>
>>> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the
>>> VDF Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the
>>> metatags the studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS
>>> executables and Beyond compare the right way).
>>>
>>> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
>>> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>>>
>>> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
>>> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating
>>> an installer etc etc.
>>>
>>> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are
>>> us, and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming
>>> cheap, as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot
>>> of Indian and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees
>>> charging $15 per hour), see these projects go for higher amounts,
>>> they will download VDF and play with it and bid for projects...
>>> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these
>>> techniques bring costs down for .net development houses.
>>>
>>> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Marco
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

Marco
3-Sep-2008, 03:39 AM
And further,

In the beginning it will just be ourselves us developers projects, but
it paves the way for more.

eg I have a project I want to load up in the next couple of weeks for:

1. VDF program with timer, that checks a number of email boxes and based
on settings in a database, either or all:
- Sends an out of office message to the sender (unless the sender domain
is in a certain list
- Forwards the email to another staff member and deletes from the
originating recipient
- Forwards the email to another staff member and keeps in the original
recipients list.

Then a WebApp program that guide's the user in making the above setting
with:

Entry of new:
- Original recipient
- Start date and time
- End date and time
- [ ] send out of office message personalised as ________
- [ ] Forward to ________ \/ with ( ) delete or ( ) keep

View list of settings for a person

View list of settings, all persons within date range.

Anyway,
Just a couple of days of playing around. Must get the specs done soon,
so I can load it up.

Cheers,
Marco



Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
> To expose VDF and get developers to know/hear/read about it it's free
> (cheaper than "cheapo" :-) )
>
> Pepe
>
> Wil van Antwerpen dijo lo siguiente el 03/09/2008 9:59:
>
>> Just looked and this was how the first project description I clicked
>> on started.....
>> http://www.scriptlance.com/projects/1220412469.shtml
>> <quote>
>> THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I'M POSTING THIS PROJECT. EVERY TIME I
>> CHOOSE A "WINNER", THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION TO
>> COMMUNICATE....AND I CANCEL THE PROJECT. IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE ON
>> AT LEAST A BI-WEEKLY BASIS, DON'T WASTE YOUR (OR MY) TIME BIDDING!!!
>> ALSO, READ THE ATTACHED PRIMER! IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY!
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY AND NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
>>
>> BY READING AND/OR BIDDING ON THIS PROJECT AND/OR IT'S ATTACHMENT(S),
>> YOU AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:
>>
>> WHEREAS, Smith Utilities yadda yadda...
>> </quote>
>>
>> Well I value my time better as that. It does completely follow my
>> expectations, as in you get what you pay for. Wish you all lots of
>> luck with finding the "el cheapo" professional visual dataflex
>> developers. Sounds to me like the proverbial needle in a haystack.
>>
>> --
>> Wil
>>
>>
>> Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting.
>>>
>>> We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.
>>>
>>> To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Pepe
>>>
>>> Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:
>>>
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>
>>>> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>>>>
>>>> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
>>>> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>>>>
>>>> Currently the categories are:
>>>>
>>>> PHP
>>>> MySQL
>>>> Website Design
>>>> Graphic Design
>>>> Flash
>>>> CSS
>>>> Script Installation
>>>> Ajax
>>>> SEO
>>>> Javascript
>>>> Marketing
>>>> Writing
>>>> Data Entry
>>>> XHTML
>>>> Java
>>>> XML
>>>> C/C++
>>>> Multimedia
>>>> ASP
>>>> .NET
>>>> Joomla
>>>> Perl/CGI
>>>> CMS
>>>> Plus more...
>>>>
>>>> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the
>>>> VDF Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the
>>>> metatags the studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS
>>>> executables and Beyond compare the right way).
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
>>>> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
>>>> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating
>>>> an installer etc etc.
>>>>
>>>> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are
>>>> us, and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming
>>>> cheap, as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot
>>>> of Indian and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees
>>>> charging $15 per hour), see these projects go for higher amounts,
>>>> they will download VDF and play with it and bid for projects...
>>>> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these
>>>> techniques bring costs down for .net development houses.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Marco
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

wila
3-Sep-2008, 06:08 AM
OK I'll bite and give you some more of the background reasoning on my
opinion on this.

First Off, I believe the market is certainly big enough and there's no
to little danger on directly putting existing dataflex developers
without a job.

Second I also think that developers in 3rd world countries deserve to
get decent jobs and market conform payments.

Marco said that he wants to put projects down there in order to grow the
interest for developers to learn DataFlex. While it might help just a
little bit, I think you'll not find experienced developers that way, nor
will any potential developer learn the language in their own time, while
they are looking for work with skills they already posses. You can't eat
without money in this world.

So you are very likely going to employ a newbie and you are paying for
his education, fine. But if you think that this person is going to stay
with you, think again. He/She knows you got him/her because it was
cheap, so when they get offered a dollar more... bye bye dollars spent..
... or in the alternative you hired a dummy :P (not necessarily true)

Then there's the distance, if you don't have an experienced dataflex
developer sitting down there in the team, I seriously doubt that you
will get what you specced out. They don't speak the dataflex lingo...
you know. Are you willing to spent lots of time on working outside of
what's normal in your timezone?
Add cultural differences, they are much bigger as what you think they are...

The same post in that site to get cheap dataflex developers also tells
current dataflex developers that they better learn more on their skill
set as just dataflex.
If those get hired as a C++/.net/java developer, I don't think they'll
come back that quickly.. most people try to grow during their career, so
going back to dataflex is then most likely also a step back in their income.

So *yes* I think it is possible to get very experienced dataflex
developers in 3rd world countries, but unless you know what you are
doing, its going to slap you back in the face hard.

Hey I've worked (and still work) with lots of developers globally -
including for example Russian and Brazilian developers - and can only
say that they are top notch, but they know the dataflex language already
(or aren't interested in learning it at all)

So either hire developers in other continents via other software houses
that have experience with doing this already OR prepare to invest heaps
in time and frustration (and most likely dollars)

Again I'll repeat that this is just my opinion and you are welcome to
have your own and again I wish you all lots of luck with this.

--
Wil




Wil van Antwerpen wrote:
> Just looked and this was how the first project description I clicked on
> started.....
> http://www.scriptlance.com/projects/1220412469.shtml
> <quote>
> THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I'M POSTING THIS PROJECT. EVERY TIME I CHOOSE
> A "WINNER", THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION TO
> COMMUNICATE....AND I CANCEL THE PROJECT. IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE ON AT
> LEAST A BI-WEEKLY BASIS, DON'T WASTE YOUR (OR MY) TIME BIDDING!!! ALSO,
> READ THE ATTACHED PRIMER! IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY!
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY AND NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
>
> BY READING AND/OR BIDDING ON THIS PROJECT AND/OR IT'S ATTACHMENT(S), YOU
> AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:
>
> WHEREAS, Smith Utilities yadda yadda...
> </quote>
>
> Well I value my time better as that. It does completely follow my
> expectations, as in you get what you pay for. Wish you all lots of luck
> with finding the "el cheapo" professional visual dataflex developers.
> Sounds to me like the proverbial needle in a haystack.
>
> --
> Wil
>
>
> Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
>> Interesting.
>>
>> We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.
>>
>> To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Pepe
>>
>> Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:
>>
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>>>
>>> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
>>> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>>>
>>> Currently the categories are:
>>>
>>> PHP
>>> MySQL
>>> Website Design
>>> Graphic Design
>>> Flash
>>> CSS
>>> Script Installation
>>> Ajax
>>> SEO
>>> Javascript
>>> Marketing
>>> Writing
>>> Data Entry
>>> XHTML
>>> Java
>>> XML
>>> C/C++
>>> Multimedia
>>> ASP
>>> .NET
>>> Joomla
>>> Perl/CGI
>>> CMS
>>> Plus more...
>>>
>>> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
>>> Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
>>> studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
>>> compare the right way).
>>>
>>> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
>>> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>>>
>>> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
>>> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating
>>> an installer etc etc.
>>>
>>> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us,
>>> and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming
>>> cheap, as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot
>>> of Indian and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees
>>> charging $15 per hour), see these projects go for higher amounts,
>>> they will download VDF and play with it and bid for projects...
>>> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
>>> bring costs down for .net development houses.
>>>
>>> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Marco
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

seanyboy
3-Sep-2008, 07:50 AM
Great minds think alike. I too have been thinking about "Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a
programming language."

I was going to put something up soon (when the site went live) to discuss the theoretical
possibility of moving questions from the Daccess Forums over to stackoverflow.com

If you haven't heard of this, it's like a free version of experts exchange.

It's in beta at the moment, but can be found at:

http://beta.stackoverflow.com/

Given that the daccess forums generate 5-6 questions a day, having those over on a
publically available site that programmers go should be good. These programmers will see
questions being regularly asked and *then* regularly answered. Positive Kudos for the
dataflex community.

Anyway -
I'll post this again when stackoverflow comes out of beta. I'm hoping that people will see
this as a good idea.






Marco Kuipers wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>
> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>
> Currently the categories are:
>
> PHP
> MySQL
> Website Design
> Graphic Design
> Flash
> CSS
> Script Installation
> Ajax
> SEO
> Javascript
> Marketing
> Writing
> Data Entry
> XHTML
> Java
> XML
> C/C++
> Multimedia
> ASP
> .NET
> Joomla
> Perl/CGI
> CMS
> Plus more...
>
> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
> Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
> studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
> compare the right way).
>
> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>
> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating an
> installer etc etc.
>
> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us,
> and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming cheap,
> as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot of Indian
> and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees charging $15 per
> hour), see these projects go for higher amounts, they will download VDF
> and play with it and bid for projects...
> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
> bring costs down for .net development houses.
>
> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>
> Cheers,
> Marco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

John van Houten
4-Oct-2008, 04:50 AM
Wil,

I think you are 100% right.

- John v

"Wil van Antwerpen" <info@antwise.com> wrote in message
news:XkkLUVbDJHA.4900@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> OK I'll bite and give you some more of the background reasoning on my
> opinion on this.
>
> First Off, I believe the market is certainly big enough and there's no
> to little danger on directly putting existing dataflex developers without
> a job.
>
> Second I also think that developers in 3rd world countries deserve to
> get decent jobs and market conform payments.
>
> Marco said that he wants to put projects down there in order to grow the
> interest for developers to learn DataFlex. While it might help just a
> little bit, I think you'll not find experienced developers that way, nor
> will any potential developer learn the language in their own time, while
> they are looking for work with skills they already posses. You can't eat
> without money in this world.
>
> So you are very likely going to employ a newbie and you are paying for
> his education, fine. But if you think that this person is going to stay
> with you, think again. He/She knows you got him/her because it was cheap,
> so when they get offered a dollar more... bye bye dollars spent.. .. or in
> the alternative you hired a dummy :P (not necessarily true)
>
> Then there's the distance, if you don't have an experienced dataflex
> developer sitting down there in the team, I seriously doubt that you
> will get what you specced out. They don't speak the dataflex lingo...
> you know. Are you willing to spent lots of time on working outside of
> what's normal in your timezone?
> Add cultural differences, they are much bigger as what you think they
> are...
>
> The same post in that site to get cheap dataflex developers also tells
> current dataflex developers that they better learn more on their skill
> set as just dataflex.
> If those get hired as a C++/.net/java developer, I don't think they'll
> come back that quickly.. most people try to grow during their career, so
> going back to dataflex is then most likely also a step back in their
> income.
>
> So *yes* I think it is possible to get very experienced dataflex
> developers in 3rd world countries, but unless you know what you are
> doing, its going to slap you back in the face hard.
>
> Hey I've worked (and still work) with lots of developers globally -
> including for example Russian and Brazilian developers - and can only say
> that they are top notch, but they know the dataflex language already (or
> aren't interested in learning it at all)
>
> So either hire developers in other continents via other software houses
> that have experience with doing this already OR prepare to invest heaps in
> time and frustration (and most likely dollars)
>
> Again I'll repeat that this is just my opinion and you are welcome to
> have your own and again I wish you all lots of luck with this.
>
> --
> Wil
>
>
>
>
> Wil van Antwerpen wrote:
>> Just looked and this was how the first project description I clicked on
>> started.....
>> http://www.scriptlance.com/projects/1220412469.shtml
>> <quote>
>> THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I'M POSTING THIS PROJECT. EVERY TIME I CHOOSE
>> A "WINNER", THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION TO
>> COMMUNICATE....AND I CANCEL THE PROJECT. IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE ON AT
>> LEAST A BI-WEEKLY BASIS, DON'T WASTE YOUR (OR MY) TIME BIDDING!!! ALSO,
>> READ THE ATTACHED PRIMER! IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY!
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY AND NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
>>
>> BY READING AND/OR BIDDING ON THIS PROJECT AND/OR IT'S ATTACHMENT(S), YOU
>> AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:
>>
>> WHEREAS, Smith Utilities yadda yadda...
>> </quote>
>>
>> Well I value my time better as that. It does completely follow my
>> expectations, as in you get what you pay for. Wish you all lots of luck
>> with finding the "el cheapo" professional visual dataflex developers.
>> Sounds to me like the proverbial needle in a haystack.
>>
>> --
>> Wil
>>
>>
>> Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
>>> Interesting.
>>>
>>> We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.
>>>
>>> To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Pepe
>>>
>>> Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:
>>>
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>
>>>> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>>>>
>>>> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
>>>> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for them.
>>>>
>>>> Currently the categories are:
>>>>
>>>> PHP
>>>> MySQL
>>>> Website Design
>>>> Graphic Design
>>>> Flash
>>>> CSS
>>>> Script Installation
>>>> Ajax
>>>> SEO
>>>> Javascript
>>>> Marketing
>>>> Writing
>>>> Data Entry
>>>> XHTML
>>>> Java
>>>> XML
>>>> C/C++
>>>> Multimedia
>>>> ASP
>>>> .NET
>>>> Joomla
>>>> Perl/CGI
>>>> CMS
>>>> Plus more...
>>>>
>>>> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the VDF
>>>> Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the metatags the
>>>> studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS executables and Beyond
>>>> compare the right way).
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
>>>> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else to
>>>> solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc. Creating an
>>>> installer etc etc.
>>>>
>>>> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are us,
>>>> and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming cheap,
>>>> as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot of Indian
>>>> and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees charging $15 per
>>>> hour), see these projects go for higher amounts, they will download VDF
>>>> and play with it and bid for projects...
>>>> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these techniques
>>>> bring costs down for .net development houses.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Marco
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

wila
4-Oct-2008, 05:30 AM
John,

Well I am happy if I'm not right on that one too, especially if it grows
the visual dataflex market :)

Two weeks ago I attended VMware's VMworld 2008 in Vegas (as in: Wowww
15000 attendees) and have showed/explained quite a few IT managers what
a single person can do with Visual Dataflex in comparison to what they
need a whole team for.. this IMHO makes more sense in growing a dataflex
market as hiring a new developer that has no money ;) It always are
small steps, but every step is another one.

--
Wil

John van Houten wrote:
> Wil,
>
> I think you are 100% right.
>
> - John v
>
> "Wil van Antwerpen" <info@antwise.com> wrote in message
> news:XkkLUVbDJHA.4900@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> OK I'll bite and give you some more of the background reasoning on my
>> opinion on this.
>>
>> First Off, I believe the market is certainly big enough and there's no
>> to little danger on directly putting existing dataflex developers
>> without a job.
>>
>> Second I also think that developers in 3rd world countries deserve to
>> get decent jobs and market conform payments.
>>
>> Marco said that he wants to put projects down there in order to grow the
>> interest for developers to learn DataFlex. While it might help just a

>> little bit, I think you'll not find experienced developers that way, nor
>> will any potential developer learn the language in their own time, while
>> they are looking for work with skills they already posses. You can't eat
>> without money in this world.
>>
>> So you are very likely going to employ a newbie and you are paying for
>> his education, fine. But if you think that this person is going to
>> stay with you, think again. He/She knows you got him/her because it
>> was cheap, so when they get offered a dollar more... bye bye dollars
>> spent.. .. or in the alternative you hired a dummy :P (not necessarily
>> true)
>>
>> Then there's the distance, if you don't have an experienced dataflex
>> developer sitting down there in the team, I seriously doubt that you
>> will get what you specced out. They don't speak the dataflex lingo...
>> you know. Are you willing to spent lots of time on working outside of
>> what's normal in your timezone?
>> Add cultural differences, they are much bigger as what you think they
>> are...
>>
>> The same post in that site to get cheap dataflex developers also tells
>> current dataflex developers that they better learn more on their skill
>> set as just dataflex.
>> If those get hired as a C++/.net/java developer, I don't think they'll
>> come back that quickly.. most people try to grow during their career,
>> so going back to dataflex is then most likely also a step back in
>> their income.
>>
>> So *yes* I think it is possible to get very experienced dataflex
>> developers in 3rd world countries, but unless you know what you are
>> doing, its going to slap you back in the face hard.
>>
>> Hey I've worked (and still work) with lots of developers globally -
>> including for example Russian and Brazilian developers - and can only
>> say that they are top notch, but they know the dataflex language
>> already (or aren't interested in learning it at all)
>>
>> So either hire developers in other continents via other software houses
>> that have experience with doing this already OR prepare to invest
>> heaps in time and frustration (and most likely dollars)
>>
>> Again I'll repeat that this is just my opinion and you are welcome to
>> have your own and again I wish you all lots of luck with this.
>>
>> --
>> Wil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wil van Antwerpen wrote:
>>> Just looked and this was how the first project description I clicked
>>> on started.....
>>> http://www.scriptlance.com/projects/1220412469.shtml
>>> <quote>
>>> THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I'M POSTING THIS PROJECT. EVERY TIME I
>>> CHOOSE A "WINNER", THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION TO
>>> COMMUNICATE....AND I CANCEL THE PROJECT. IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE ON
>>> AT LEAST A BI-WEEKLY BASIS, DON'T WASTE YOUR (OR MY) TIME BIDDING!!!
>>> ALSO, READ THE ATTACHED PRIMER! IT'S SELF-EXPLANATORY!
>>>
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY AND NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
>>>
>>> BY READING AND/OR BIDDING ON THIS PROJECT AND/OR IT'S ATTACHMENT(S),
>>> YOU AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:
>>>
>>> WHEREAS, Smith Utilities yadda yadda...
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> Well I value my time better as that. It does completely follow my
>>> expectations, as in you get what you pay for. Wish you all lots of
>>> luck with finding the "el cheapo" professional visual dataflex
>>> developers. Sounds to me like the proverbial needle in a haystack.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Wil
>>>
>>>
>>> Pepe Guimar„es wrote:
>>>> Interesting.
>>>>
>>>> We just posted a question about a project t in VDF/WebAPP.
>>>>
>>>> To avoid googling https://www.scriptlance.com/
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Pepe
>>>>
>>>> Marco Kuipers dijo lo siguiente el 08/08/2008 1:45:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just having one of my brainstorm moments again, so bear with me...
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just invented (found) Scriptlance. It is a site where you post
>>>>> projects you want to have done and where programmers do a bid for
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the categories are:
>>>>>
>>>>> PHP
>>>>> MySQL
>>>>> Website Design
>>>>> Graphic Design
>>>>> Flash
>>>>> CSS
>>>>> Script Installation
>>>>> Ajax
>>>>> SEO
>>>>> Javascript
>>>>> Marketing
>>>>> Writing
>>>>> Data Entry
>>>>> XHTML
>>>>> Java
>>>>> XML
>>>>> C/C++
>>>>> Multimedia
>>>>> ASP
>>>>> .NET
>>>>> Joomla
>>>>> Perl/CGI
>>>>> CMS
>>>>> Plus more...
>>>>>
>>>>> I am currently having a project done for integrating VSS into the
>>>>> VDF Studio's tools menu (by having executables that take the
>>>>> metatags the studio is happy to share, and calling the VSS
>>>>> executables and Beyond compare the right way).
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, my brainstorm is about the following goal:
>>>>> - Exposure of Visual Dataflex as a programming language.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone of use has little jobs that you would love somebody else
>>>>> to solve for you, like packaging certain ActiveX projects etc.
>>>>> Creating an installer etc etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Initially you will find that the persons loading the projects are
>>>>> us, and the programmers are too. This is not making the programming
>>>>> cheap, as most of us want a decent dollar. But as these guys (a lot
>>>>> of Indian and other Asian programmers, with double IT degrees
>>>>> charging $15 per hour), see these projects go for higher amounts,
>>>>> they will download VDF and play with it and bid for projects...
>>>>> This will bring our costs down for projects, just as these
>>>>> techniques bring costs down for .net development houses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please let me know your opinion about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Marco
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>