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Roel Westhoff [W4]
24-Feb-2009, 03:01 AM
Hi Daw,

Based in the Netherlands we are facing the direction that in the near future our national, state and local governments are converting to open-source and open standards. Legislation has been changed that the Microsoft Operating system can not be pre-defined any more. It has to be one of the choices that government has (Mac, Windows, Linux or whatever else). There is a tendency for government to investigate and convert there windows-based sites to open-source operating systems (specially because the openoffice.org has been improved a lot). There are not that many sites yet but sentiment is changing fast. Cost is one of the main reasons

I'm aware of the fact that VDF is and will not be open-source. For government, when no alternatives, closed-source is acceptable.

Q: Are there any plans to get the VDF development environment running on a Linux-based system (Ubuntu)

Roel Westhoff
W4 Software & Consultancy BV
Valkenswaard, Netherlands

A Paul Anthony
3-Mar-2009, 04:18 AM
I know this doesn't entirely answer your question, but two things come to mind.


There used to be a Linux version of dataflex (not VDF). Though as far as I know support for it has long ceased
Various people have had success using Wine (though I'll still not got around to using VDF in it yet myself). Wine was in fact created for just this sort of scenario http://www.winehq.org/why#chicken

Vincent Oorsprong
3-Mar-2009, 04:41 AM
Paul,

The CM product (3.2) is still a supported product (see http://www.dataaccess.com/support.asp?pageid=890).

A Paul Anthony
3-Mar-2009, 05:24 AM
Well I'll be...

I stand corrected.

wila
4-Mar-2009, 05:30 AM
I know this doesn't entirely answer your question, but two things come to mind.


There used to be a Linux version of dataflex (not VDF). Though as far as I know support for it has long ceased
Various people have had success using Wine (though I'll still not got around to using VDF in it yet myself). Wine was in fact created for just this sort of scenario http://www.winehq.org/why#chicken


Two comments on that:
1. The linux product is dead
2. Using Wine is a patch and the last VDF version it works well with is VDF11.1
Wine doesn't like the VDF studio because of its heavily tied in with parts on internet explorer (not just browsing, but also the XML libraries) Those are not well supported under Wine, at least I've not found a proper workaround for that yet.

--
Wil

Vincent Oorsprong
4-Mar-2009, 11:41 PM
Wil,

What is the opinion of the Wine developers about their incompatibility with Windows parts like IE.?

wila
5-Mar-2009, 05:20 AM
Vincent,

I don't know.. haven't asked them. You can actually install internet explorer on top of wine under linux, so it isn't only incompatibility that is the problem. It is licensing that's biting here from all I know about it.

It is one of those things I was trying in order to get around the inability to run the new Studio properly on wine, but I ran out of time for my experiments and new more interesting projects came up... so I retired the "run VDF on linux" project for a little while.. that's how it goes sometimes.. :rolleyes: until I try it again.

But sure there are still gaps in the wine implementation. Nevertheless there's more and more software that runs really well on it. Still and I cannot stress this enough, I would not use Wine as a platform to use for any of my customers as it is not supported.
--
Wil

chuckatkinson
5-Mar-2009, 09:01 AM
We are a mixed shop here. Production app is compiled 3.1d CM from original 2.x procedural code. We are still currently on native-DF files. But have hopes and dreams of someday being SQL based (probably MySQL or DB2). Here's a couple of thoughts about VDF on Linux and how you can get something working.



Sun's Virtualbox - it's free and you get a full Windoze environment on Linux. I've installed VDF 11.1 and my development tools. Works a charm.
Cross-Over Office. From the developers of Wine, but is supported. Very agile environment allowing you choose version of Windows etc. Can run Windoze apps seemlessly from the desktop, including IE.
VMWare - more $$ than VirtualBox and IMHO not as easy to get it working.

Now getting on my soapbox about Dataflex/VDF. I understand why DAW made the decision long ago to go full MS. But I still miss the days when you could write a DF CM app and run it on virtually everything. There are still development environments out there that this is true today (see RealBasic and the everything JAVA). It seems like VDF and the DAW products are so lost in the overall Windoze IDE world that a foray into a full visual product in Linux would boost their standing. But I doubt this would ever happen.

Garret Mott
5-Mar-2009, 09:17 AM
I understand why DAW made the decision long ago to go full MS. But I still miss the days when you could write a DF CM app and run it on virtually everything. There are still development environments out there that this is true today (see RealBasic and the everything JAVA). It seems like VDF and the DAW products are so lost in the overall Windoze IDE world that a foray into a full visual product in Linux would boost their standing. But I doubt this would ever happen.

I agree. One of the great selling points of DF back in the day was being able to tell clients that if they chose to switch from DOS to Unix (or vice-versa), all they had to do was to get different licenses & recompile. Chances were good they wouldn't - but it made a difference. Plus, the # of businesses going with Linux is increasing rapidly, as MS keeps shooting itself in the foot marketing- & security-wise.

Running on both (while I realize it wouldn't be easy) would really set VDF apart from the rest of the pack - as DF once was.

My 2 cents -

Larry R Pint
5-Mar-2009, 10:44 AM
In my discussion with Chip on this subject in the past (several years ago now), his basic attitude was that people (companies) would not pay money for applications written for a free operating system. The people that are using Linux, he felt, wanted everything for free.

While I don't entirely agree with his logic, I do understand where he's coming from. There _are_ many people in the Linux world who will not use anything that is not "free". I also know that there are many people who are more than willing to pay about the same amount for an application in Linux as they would for an equivelant application in Windows. (My current client is one of them.)

I have argued for 3 thing for many years:
1) Continued development of DF for Linux
2) Porting VDF to Linux
3) Webapp server for Linux (this was all but done, but DAW chose not to release it)

Larry Pint
SOFT-STAR, Inc.

Garret Mott
5-Mar-2009, 04:33 PM
In my discussion with Chip on this subject in the past (several years ago now), his basic attitude was that people (companies) would not pay money for applications written for a free operating system. The people that are using Linux, he felt, wanted everything for free.

I strongly disagree. Sure, the hobby guys might, but with the constantly inflating cost of administering Windows & easier hacking, I hear about more & more people switching to Linux as a normal business OS. Besides - many aren't using a free OS, they're using a purchased (albeit very cheaply) & supported version.

I won't tell the story of a friend who has a 25 user Mac network w/out any support people whatsoever. Oops....

<Soapbox>
Times change & DAW will either change with them or go the way of the dinosaurs
</Soapbox>

Pak
5-Mar-2009, 04:33 PM
Webapp on Linux (presumably for Apache) would be fantastic! Don't need a desktop application; just code for webapp/web services and create a full-on web application.

Companies are much happier with the idea of Linux running server applications than they are about it running desktop applications, so it would be an easier sell.

Marco
5-Mar-2009, 04:48 PM
Hi,


In my discussion with Chip on this subject in the past (several years ago now), his basic attitude was that people (companies) would not pay money for applications written for a free operating system. The people that are using Linux, he felt, wanted everything for free.

While I don't entirely agree with his logic, I do understand where he's coming from.
...
Larry Pint
SOFT-STAR, Inc.

I think that this has changed a lot. RedHat Enterprise Linux costs just as much as W2k8, DataFlex for Linux cost money, and we spend 40k each year on renewals for DB2 on Linux. another 20k for Domino on Linux etc...

So for the hobby programmer this might go up, but in the professional world, it does not.

Cheers,
Marco

chuckatkinson
5-Mar-2009, 05:22 PM
Sure you can get free Open Source software for Linux, including MySQL. But if you want support - you pay. It's how companies like RedHat stay in business. The Linux 'sales model' for software is : download it for free, try to make it work, get frustrated and then pay for support ;)

The other model is the "Enterprise" model. You can get a community version that is basically stripped down, but if you want management tools and or something else useful you have to buy it.

Trying to fit VDF into a Linux model would be very difficult. Eclipse + Java, PHP, C++ and Gtk, Apache, JBOSS etc. are all free to the developer. There are loads and loads of VERY good OpenSource development platforms all competing in the Linux world. DAW would find it very hard to break into this environment.

A Paul Anthony
9-Mar-2009, 04:23 AM
Hear hear!

azray
1-May-2009, 06:43 PM
Not so sure about the difficulty of getting into the IDE world. I think it would open up more revenue potential simply be being compatible and if truly a efficient development language, would attract more developers. Of course the argument that Linux implies everything for free is baloney. The free part opens the doors, the make it work costs.

Linux VDF would retain customers who are "ABM" (anything but Microsoft) shops. The trend continues. I find it paticularly telling in the advertisements of Novell(Linux) / Microsoft = working together. How quaint.

raveens
3-Aug-2009, 06:28 PM
Hi All,

I've been holding on to this torch for a long time - hoping DAW will come out with at least VDF Runtime for Linux. But seeing how technology is evolving and has evolved – I’m placing my money on Web 2.0

Think about it – Linux is great! We as a company have only deployed on Linux servers for the last 15 years. But it’s not a desktop and I don’t think it can compete with Windows as a desktop. As a Server it’s awesome but not as a desktop.

The way technology seems to be evolving – in my point of view anyway – is towards cloud computing or web applications. Imagine, if you could compile your VDF applications straight to web – where the application runs on your browser and looks and feels like a normal “desktop” VDF application. I have a feeling that the team at DAW is currently working on this – with a release on the new AJAX library – this reality may not be too far in the future – I hope; Maybe in VDF15.1?

The icing on the cake would be to have the VDF WebApp Server run natively on a Linux server (i.e. Apache)! Larry’s right – work had been done on a Linux WebApp Server many years ago but it’s been put on the back burner since – why? Maybe they wanted to fix the MS WebApp Server first? Who knows?

The future’s not desktop computing but web.

RaphaelT.
20-Aug-2009, 04:49 AM
I developped and Web application during my end of study work.

Know we're switching one of our server's to linux. The fact is, Df is using the IIS server to communicate, and I really got no idea if my app could run on the linux server.

I thing it could be really an advantage for DF and DAW to developp a Web App Server for linux based servers. Most of the web servers in the world are linux based systems.

So that's just my opinion on it.