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Javier
11-Feb-2013, 04:35 PM
There would be some interest to develop a back-end VDF to be implemented in HTML5 or Javascript fronts?

Javier

Javier
14-Feb-2013, 07:09 AM
No ?

chuckatkinson
14-Feb-2013, 10:53 AM
Javier - can you explain in more detail ? I suspect English is not your native language and if it would help post both spanish and english - we can try a translation.

I am interested in knowing more about your question.

Javier
14-Feb-2013, 09:50 PM
Hello Chuck, yes, I have problems to explain me. It's difficult because now seems something abstract. Please, go to this post:

http://support.dataaccess.com/Forums/showthread.php?49902-Comparing-2D-and-3D-with-nurses

Javier

Focus
15-Feb-2013, 09:40 AM
Is this not what 17.1 does ? ie presents the browser with a javascript engine that manages the interface written in HTML/JS/CSS and makes data requests back and forth to the server ?

Javier
15-Feb-2013, 09:51 PM
Yes, but the javascript engine creates HTML scripts based only on fluid grids. If I don't want to use fluid grids, ( using graphic areas with coordinates ) the work to change these scripts will be too much complicated. The WEB developers say that it will be simpler to work from empty web pages, than from those that make the RAD.

This is, making WEB pages without RAD including DATA commands like from PHP/MySQL, but using VDF as DB Engine.

I can be very confused but nobody clarifies this matter.

Javier

Harm Wibier
16-Feb-2013, 05:54 AM
Javier,

We have looked into coordinate positioning on the web and we found that it would just be against the nature of the web. We probably could have pulled it off but we would be fighting the default browser behaviors. The column layout brings you a way of doing your layouts easily with automatic alignment and still can give you more detailed control if you need to.

The HTML5 graphical capabilities you seem to be referring to here are mainly aimed at doing special things like Graphs and Games, things we used to do with flash. While some business applications do have graphs and some of those advanced controls it definitely was not our main focus. We hope that people will still be able to do those things manually by creating custom controls. I'd also like to point out that the support for these technologies is still limited, not all browsers support this, especially not the older versions.

Regards,

Javier
16-Feb-2013, 10:11 PM
Harm, thank you for answering. It is very important to know the official opinion. That I am very critical does not mean that I don't want the best for VDF. Is the opposite.

My opinion adding to your position, is that we are using too much information in the business views. Will be very difficult that the layouts can adapt them to a smartphone, and it seems to be inevitable that we have to do 2 applications. One for wide screens and other for smartphones. At this case, the layouts can lose all his utility.

Except that I am wrong, the layouts could be a tool of poor utility at our case. More adding the sacrifice of can not use graphs. And if you see the interest of WEB developers in HTML5, the differences between browsers will be a question of time. In fact IE has gone down to the 3rd position. And Google like Mozilla ( winners ) are very interested in HTML5. In fact are their bases.

Now, understanding the official way, my only exit is to use my own controls. I am in it. But it is there where I don't see support nor directives if they exists. This is my question, and if you will do something to can use the VDF polling to external native HTML5 controls. This is my black hole.

If not, the only way using external controls into native HTML5 scripts.... well.... a great part of the VDF users are pushing to SQL ( no native DF database ) , I have to make my front end in pure HTML5, but I have not a way to connect them to the VDF back-end polling, I do not see way of continue with VDF. I want that this can be maked. But you have to say if it is in your road map, and when.

Javier

Javier
21-Feb-2013, 04:04 AM
Maybe with this will be much easy to speak.

A- Native VDF WebApp. ( no questions ).

B- Native VDF WebAPP jumping to non VDF pages. Sometimes using VDF DATA controls into this last.

C- Use of VDF DATA controls into HTML5 pages.

D- All non VDF ( page and data controls ) but connected with VDF DATA.

Questions:

1- Way B. Will be possible to jump between native VDF WebAPP pages and non VDF WebAPP pages as classic pages, into the same windows of the browser ? This is.. mantaining the steam of the session ? A good example. Use a HTML5 graphic page as menu of VDF WebAPP entries. The only problem that I see is that the VDF session would be to mantain in background meanwhile the non VDF pages are actives.

2- Way C. Use of VDF data controls into non VDF HTML scripts. No problem correct ?

3- Way D. Use of data from VDF but using other external controls / scripts. At this way the problem is that the VDF datacontrols runs like blackboxes. At this way would be posible 2 ways:

- To build our own data controls if we know ( now we don't know ) the flow of data from VDF server to the VDF controls.
- To build our own controls acceding to the VDF data server with our own protocols.

It would be nice an extense explanation of all this, and each one could take his better way.

Javier

Harm Wibier
26-Feb-2013, 08:51 AM
Javier,

We are following this thread with interest but we are having a hard time getting a good picture of what you are after. This might be due to language barriers or differences in the interpretation of several technologies. It makes it hard for us to participate in the discussion.

Note that the buzzword HTML5 that you’re using regularly is just a standard that is the follow up of HTML4. It actually is HTML4 with some extensions. Our framework is compliant with the HTML5 standard. We are not using a lot of the new technologies offered in HTML5 due to several reasons. One is cross-browser support, another is because they are simply not sufficient (for example the HTML5 field validations) and another is that it is outside the scope of what our framework is about (canvas / audio & video / geolocation). These are also technologies that can very well be encapsulated in controls for our new framework and we most likely will use some of them in later revisions.

In the other thread you are talking about the grid style which we usually call the column layout system. We came up with the column layout and the panels because we needed a way of positioning stuff on the screen that was closer to HTML its liquid layout systems and controllable from our framework. We believe that this system suits the style of application we expect our customers to create well. I’m not sure how you would have liked to see it.

To get a better idea of what it is you’re after this whole discussion probably needs to become a bit more concrete. Can you provide us with a sample of what you’d like to build?

Regards,

Javier
26-Feb-2013, 03:24 PM
I will try other way: I am playing my company in the jump from WinAPP to WebApp. The productivity of the RAD is excellent. But the final product is not impressive. I know that in future versions it will be improving. But when ?

We have lost clients for not having an application done for the WEB waiting for 17.1 it is moment to impress with much more than others. Not with was an advance in the web market 5 years ago. Our way is to complicate ourselves ( we, not you ) with 2D and 3D to do business graphs taking advantage that HTML5 makes it now possible into W3C standart. Already we have tried to make with VDF a graph canvas from zero. It is not difficult. But to do an authentic virtual environment in 2D or 3D, VDF's panels must float like iframes over the graphical bottom. And the fluid layout does not allow it on not having used coordinates.

picture 1.

Why all this ? Because if you can to do that, you can do what you want like this video. Minutes 1:51 to the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFkyV7d5t8o

If somebody see this as too much futurist... don't know nothing about 3D. ARE THE SAME. Are only 3D objects. Much more graphic work. But nothing more. The only question is to connect them with the data source. With HTML5, W3C puts now all needed to make this now. We want to use VDF to connect it with them.

To convert data from VDF data to 2D graphic charts using canvas is not difficult, and using native VDF. The problem is to mantain the chart in the screen with overlaped VDF WebApp controls. We are searching a bridge to solve this as a begin. I putted a scheme in my previous post, but seems that you have not read it.

picture 2.

There are 3 ways:

1- Find a way to use VDF panels as an iframe floating over a 2D / 3D business chart. The graph is builded from VDF with direct_output. ( this is done ). Areas of this graphic chart are buttons ( for example a month into a monthly sales chart ) that can launch data-entries ( WebApp VDF panels ). The "only" problem is how to use a transparent fluid grid layout that shows the VDF view needed using only part of the screen to mantain visible the chart as the principal menu in background. And when the user close the view, he returns to the chart, returning to the chart.

2- Way 1 is not possible. Build our own data-controls over coordinates, using the data-flow served from the WebApp server polling.

3- Way 2 is not possible. Build our own data-controls over coordinates, connecting with the ODBC / Query layer without VDF, but mantaining VDF as language in the server for BPOs.

Javier

Harm Wibier
27-Feb-2013, 05:04 AM
So you want a charting control that uses HTML5 to render the chart and is seeded with data from VDF. This is something that could be built using our framework very well. We are not planning to build a charting control right now so you (or someone else) will have to do this as a custom control. Sending the data to client can be done using the same API's that our grids & treeviews use. There will be training (for example on the Synergy) and documentation on this available in the future.

Then you seem to want some kind of floating window on top of a view that is not modal. Right now we only have the modal dialog that comes close to this but technically supporting something like this would definitely be possible. There are several approaches possible to archive this but I'm quite sure we can get this going with a minimal effort (contact us when you have the other pieces working).

Regards,

Javier
27-Feb-2013, 10:55 AM
I understand what you say, and I believe that can work. A canvas area into a giant container of the grid would allow to handle graphs inside the layout breaking the appearance "metro" or as I see lately "wordpress" moving to a "cinema" appearance. This is very good, letting us to use boxes / cinema appearance under each case.

I was studying the last month and there a lot of things to solve with CSS the flat appearance. The floating panels are the only absent to give him dynamism. We will wait webinars, presentations, or manuals to see the howto.

Please, fast.

Thank you.

Javier