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Chip Casanave
28-Dec-2006, 10:48 PM
Larry -

With VDF Personal, you can give away freeware applications subject to
the terms of the License Agreement. See:
http://www.visualdataflex.com/personal.asp?pageid=840

Re: "DAW's hope is that people will try the personal edition..." - yes,
exactly.

Re: "Maybe then we can help them get there." Thanks, we appreciate the
support. The essence of how you can help is to "spread the word"
....tell friends and colleagues about Visual DataFlex and the new
Personal license. We've defined other things you can do under a
developing program called "Share VDF" - see
(http://www.visualdataflex.com/ShareVDF.asp) for details.

Regards,

Chip Casanave / DAW

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Pint [mailto:larry.pint@ntuminc.com]
Posted At: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:23 PM
Posted To: product-direction
Conversation: About the 'Personal Edition'
Subject: Re: About the 'Personal Edition'


I, personally, don't recall ever writing an app that I gave away. My
work has been for one of three purposes: 1) for my own use; 2) for a
client; or
3) to sell. (And I've never had much time to do the first of the
three.) Maybe one of the reason I haven't written anything to give away
is that I know it is impossible with DF/VDF. I have written tools in DF
that I have given away to other DF developers.

I'm guessing that DAW's hope is that people will try the personal
edition for some of their own things. Then they will discover how
powerful it is and purchase it for their other development work. DAW
products have always been aimed more at the in-house corporate developer
than the commercial app developer market, in my opinion.

Unlike the "evaluation version" of old, the personal edition has no
expiration date. That always bugged me about trial versions with time
restrictions. I'd have a few hours now, and a few hours a couple weeks
from now, and before I got into it, the time was up and I was locked
out. The personal edition overcomes that. I've downloaded the
evaluation version of Delphi several times, but have never gotten far
enough with it before the evaluation period expired. Couldn't you also
get the personal edition, develop a commercial application, and just
spend the money to buy the full development system when you're ready to
go to market with your app.

I hope DAW chimes in here with what they are trying to accomplish with
this "personal edition" product. Maybe then we can help them get there.

Larry Pint

"Mark Rutherford" <mark@maunzelectronics.com> wrote in message
news:qb8z4EsKHHA.1700@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>I can understand that particular issue.
> I am really wondering what this is all about, tho.
> I suspect that you are right, but I still have this nagging
question...
>
> How many people develop applications that they do not intend on giving

> to someone else?
>
> There is probably no real number there, why the trouble to cater to
> those people?
>
> So, I guess that is what I want to know.
> IMHO, this is doomed to fail otherwise.
>
> Larry Pint wrote:
>> I suspect that the "personal" in personal edition refers to
>> developing apps for your own personal use. Not to sell. Not to give
away.
>>
>> DAW tried the freely distributable runtime many years ago. VDF ?
>> through VDF 7 were that way. That's why many developers are still
using VDF 7.
>>
>> I suspect they (DAW) found they couldn't make enough money this way
>> to support the company and continue development, so they went back to

>> the licensed runtime method. Of course, paying for runtimes is
>> driving developers away also. This method works OK for in house
>> developers, but makes it very difficult to develop packages for
>> retail sale. Between adding to the cost, and the licensing hassles,
>> most vertical and horizontal app developers are going with more
"distribution friendly"
>> development systems.
>>
>> It's shame 'cause VDF is a really good development system.
>>
>> My opinions only. I am not a DAW employee.
>>
>> Larry Pint
>>
>>
>> "Mark Rutherford" <mark@maunzelectronics.com> wrote in message
>> news:4iv6iEqKHHA.1680@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>>> I have a lot of questions about this new 'Personal Edition' and
>>> hopefully we will get someone from DAW to chime in here
>>> (hopefully..)
>>>
>>> I see the personal edition as a step in the right direction, however

>>> I am baffled by some things...
>>>
>>> First, the direction that this is going?
>>> The personal edition is not really geared towards anyone that wants
>>> to create freeware applications because... it needs a runtime that
>>> has to be registered, etc etc.
>>>
>>> Just on this issue alone... Delphi, Visual Studio Express and such
>>> totally kill this product.
>>> I do have the personal edition, and it is fine for me, personally -
>>> but anything I do freeware I cannot redistribute.
>>> So, it is not so personal, or free.
>>>
>>> The next realm is the webapp part.
>>> It has limited numbers of connections.....
>>> So, at first glance... again, PHP and friends kill this portion.
>>>
>>> So, was the 'Personal Edition' created in order to try to get into
>>> the enthusiast market of people like me that end up buying Visual
Studio?
>>> To be honest, I don't get it....
>>> It cannot compete because I will end up with Delphi or Visual studio

>>> in the end, anyway. (Both of which I have bought...)
>>>
>>> If there was an edition that did not impose the sanctions that this
>>> does, or the severe limitations, it might generate some buzz with
>>> the freeware guys that -DO- buy these products.
>>>
>>> The ways that *I* see to fix this:
>>> 1. The # of connections to the webapp server has to be raised a lot
>>> higher for people that make free websites to use this.
>>> Currently PHP/MySQL has this market won over because there are no
>>> such restrictions.
>>>
>>> 2. The runtime has to be allowed to be distributed with a free
>>> application, and has to be handled in the background in the
>>> installation someplace.
>>> Microsoft allows this, so does Borland, etc..
>>>
>>> I know that DAW cannot influence the runtime to end up on end users'

>>> machines like Microsoft can with .NET - but if it was a hassle free
>>> installation like .NET that would be a plus.
>>>
>>> So, In the end what is the direction that DAW is going with this
>>> product?
>>> Currently it appears to only cater to current developers.
>>>
>>> I would call this the 'VDF Personal - yet crippled Edition', since
>>> the freeware guys are completely cut out of the pie.
>>>
>>> If this is not the intended target, ok.
>>> But calling it a 'Personal Edition' kinda implies that it is
allowed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Basically what I am saying is that there are too many hoops and
>>> layers for a freeware application developer to jump thru.
>>>
>>> I have told some developers I know that use Delphi, or Visual
>>> Studio, etc to try this out, and these are some of the things that
>>> came back to me.
>>> The current product cannot possibly draw Delphi/Visual Studio guys
>>> to use it.
>>>
>>> So, comments from DAW? Anyone else?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Michael Mullan
28-Dec-2006, 11:30 PM
Chip Casanave wrote:

Chip & or SWM:

On download.com, following the link at
http://www.visualdataflex.com/ShareVDF.asp
the license is listed "free to try" and the restriction as "30 day eval"
Is this what was intended?

Michael.

> Larry -
>
> With VDF Personal, you can give away freeware applications subject to
> the terms of the License Agreement. See:
> http://www.visualdataflex.com/personal.asp?pageid=840
>
> Re: "DAW's hope is that people will try the personal edition..." - yes,
> exactly.
>
> Re: "Maybe then we can help them get there." Thanks, we appreciate the
> support. The essence of how you can help is to "spread the word"
> ...tell friends and colleagues about Visual DataFlex and the new
> Personal license. We've defined other things you can do under a
> developing program called "Share VDF" - see
> (http://www.visualdataflex.com/ShareVDF.asp) for details.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chip Casanave / DAW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Pint [mailto:larry.pint@ntuminc.com]
> Posted At: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:23 PM
> Posted To: product-direction
> Conversation: About the 'Personal Edition'
> Subject: Re: About the 'Personal Edition'
>
>
> I, personally, don't recall ever writing an app that I gave away. My
> work has been for one of three purposes: 1) for my own use; 2) for a
> client; or
> 3) to sell. (And I've never had much time to do the first of the
> three.) Maybe one of the reason I haven't written anything to give away
> is that I know it is impossible with DF/VDF. I have written tools in DF
> that I have given away to other DF developers.
>
> I'm guessing that DAW's hope is that people will try the personal
> edition for some of their own things. Then they will discover how
> powerful it is and purchase it for their other development work. DAW
> products have always been aimed more at the in-house corporate developer
> than the commercial app developer market, in my opinion.
>
> Unlike the "evaluation version" of old, the personal edition has no
> expiration date. That always bugged me about trial versions with time
> restrictions. I'd have a few hours now, and a few hours a couple weeks
> from now, and before I got into it, the time was up and I was locked
> out. The personal edition overcomes that. I've downloaded the
> evaluation version of Delphi several times, but have never gotten far
> enough with it before the evaluation period expired. Couldn't you also
> get the personal edition, develop a commercial application, and just
> spend the money to buy the full development system when you're ready to
> go to market with your app.
>
> I hope DAW chimes in here with what they are trying to accomplish with
> this "personal edition" product. Maybe then we can help them get there.
>
> Larry Pint
>
> "Mark Rutherford" <mark@maunzelectronics.com> wrote in message
> news:qb8z4EsKHHA.1700@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>
>>I can understand that particular issue.
>>I am really wondering what this is all about, tho.
>>I suspect that you are right, but I still have this nagging
>
> question...
>
>>How many people develop applications that they do not intend on giving
>
>
>>to someone else?
>>
>>There is probably no real number there, why the trouble to cater to
>>those people?
>>
>>So, I guess that is what I want to know.
>>IMHO, this is doomed to fail otherwise.
>>
>>Larry Pint wrote:
>>
>>>I suspect that the "personal" in personal edition refers to
>>>developing apps for your own personal use. Not to sell. Not to give
>
> away.
>
>>>DAW tried the freely distributable runtime many years ago. VDF ?
>>>through VDF 7 were that way. That's why many developers are still
>
> using VDF 7.
>
>>>I suspect they (DAW) found they couldn't make enough money this way
>>>to support the company and continue development, so they went back to
>
>
>>>the licensed runtime method. Of course, paying for runtimes is
>>>driving developers away also. This method works OK for in house
>>>developers, but makes it very difficult to develop packages for
>>>retail sale. Between adding to the cost, and the licensing hassles,
>>>most vertical and horizontal app developers are going with more
>
> "distribution friendly"
>
>>>development systems.
>>>
>>>It's shame 'cause VDF is a really good development system.
>>>
>>>My opinions only. I am not a DAW employee.
>>>
>>>Larry Pint
>>>
>>>
>>>"Mark Rutherford" <mark@maunzelectronics.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4iv6iEqKHHA.1680@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>>>
>>>>I have a lot of questions about this new 'Personal Edition' and
>>>>hopefully we will get someone from DAW to chime in here
>>>>(hopefully..)
>>>>
>>>>I see the personal edition as a step in the right direction, however
>
>
>>>>I am baffled by some things...
>>>>
>>>>First, the direction that this is going?
>>>>The personal edition is not really geared towards anyone that wants
>>>>to create freeware applications because... it needs a runtime that
>>>>has to be registered, etc etc.
>>>>
>>>>Just on this issue alone... Delphi, Visual Studio Express and such
>>>>totally kill this product.
>>>>I do have the personal edition, and it is fine for me, personally -
>>>>but anything I do freeware I cannot redistribute.
>>>>So, it is not so personal, or free.
>>>>
>>>>The next realm is the webapp part.
>>>>It has limited numbers of connections.....
>>>>So, at first glance... again, PHP and friends kill this portion.
>>>>
>>>>So, was the 'Personal Edition' created in order to try to get into
>>>>the enthusiast market of people like me that end up buying Visual
>
> Studio?
>
>>>>To be honest, I don't get it....
>>>>It cannot compete because I will end up with Delphi or Visual studio
>
>
>>>>in the end, anyway. (Both of which I have bought...)
>>>>
>>>>If there was an edition that did not impose the sanctions that this
>>>>does, or the severe limitations, it might generate some buzz with
>>>>the freeware guys that -DO- buy these products.
>>>>
>>>>The ways that *I* see to fix this:
>>>>1. The # of connections to the webapp server has to be raised a lot
>>>>higher for people that make free websites to use this.
>>>>Currently PHP/MySQL has this market won over because there are no
>>>>such restrictions.
>>>>
>>>>2. The runtime has to be allowed to be distributed with a free
>>>>application, and has to be handled in the background in the
>>>>installation someplace.
>>>>Microsoft allows this, so does Borland, etc..
>>>>
>>>>I know that DAW cannot influence the runtime to end up on end users'
>
>
>>>>machines like Microsoft can with .NET - but if it was a hassle free
>>>>installation like .NET that would be a plus.
>>>>
>>>>So, In the end what is the direction that DAW is going with this
>>>>product?
>>>>Currently it appears to only cater to current developers.
>>>>
>>>>I would call this the 'VDF Personal - yet crippled Edition', since
>>>>the freeware guys are completely cut out of the pie.
>>>>
>>>>If this is not the intended target, ok.
>>>>But calling it a 'Personal Edition' kinda implies that it is
>
> allowed.
>
>>>>
>>>>Basically what I am saying is that there are too many hoops and
>>>>layers for a freeware application developer to jump thru.
>>>>
>>>>I have told some developers I know that use Delphi, or Visual
>>>>Studio, etc to try this out, and these are some of the things that
>>>>came back to me.
>>>>The current product cannot possibly draw Delphi/Visual Studio guys
>>>>to use it.
>>>>
>>>>So, comments from DAW? Anyone else?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>