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Stephen W. Meeley
18-Oct-2005, 08:17 AM
Garret,

No problem. You know how much I love licensing discussions, they tend to
be so clean and logical <g>.

As I mentioned to David, I appreciate the need - the question is really
if a good way can be found to address the need. It may be that
specifically allowing a Studio installation at a customer site (under
specific conditions) is the most practical solution, but it might also
have legal complications (defining the right parameters) - I don't know.

Best regards,

-SWM-


-----Original Message-----
From: Garret Mott [mailto:garret_atsign_automatesoftware_dot_com]
Posted At: Monday, October 17, 2005 10:00 PM
Posted To: product-direction
Conversation: Deploy Debugger
Subject: Re: Deploy Debugger

Hi Stephen -

First I should let you know that I'm writing this with one eye closed &
my
head tilted at 35 degrees <g>

I guess I'm confusing "ethics" & "legality".

Is it ethical for me to throw the dev. license I paid for on a machine
for
my (& only my) temporary use? I'm still only using it "single-user" as
my
office machine is off. I would say it is. Conceptually, is it really
any
different than bringing my laptop (with my license on it) & plugging it
into
the client's network?

Legal? I'll leave that to the lawyers...

This is really a moot point with today's development systems. It was
different when you could carry termlist.cfg & dfcomp.exe, an editor &
your
source & it all fit on a 5 1/4 floppy! OK maybe a 3 1/2 - but they fit
a
shirt pocket better anyway.

David is (as he says) talking something very different - the ability to
run
an app in debug mode on a client's system. I don't think he's asking (&
I
know I'm not) for the ability to code at the client's - but the ability
to
trace & see what is really happening.

This could be a useful tool. Think of watching a client do something
you
never imagined a "sane" user would do & being able to find out what's
happening behind the scenes. I develop on XP Pro. What does it do on
Win2000 with 12 programs I don't own all running in the background?
What
happens when the night-time janitors run their upright vacuum over the
(now
worn through the shielding) network cable during a save operation?

Devil's Advocate speaking: Does MS allow it? No. Does MS have a
development tool that lets me develop a business app as quickly as I can
in
VDF? Same answer. Does MS provide the level of error handling that DF
does?
Same again. Why should MS (or Borland) be the yardstick? This strikes
me
as a place where DAW could get a jump on the "competition" by providing
a
valuable tool that no one else has.

OK - time for Garret to shut up. Thanks for the willingness to engage
in
this conversation!

Garret


"Stephen Meeley" <stephen-m@dataaccess.com> wrote in message
news:F$1e5V20FHA.3380@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
Garret,

Nice try. So does that mean that if you don't install it immediately you
are in violation? What about if you go to lunch or on break and the
person who is the real primary user takes it back over for a while?

On a more serious note, the discussion of having temporary rights under
that kind of situation might be an interesting one.

Does anyone know if Microsoft would let you use Visual Studio that way?
How about the Delphi license? I'm wondering if such temporary use of a
development license on a customer machine is ever specifically allowed
(and I'm not talking about it being allowed if you squint just right and
cross your fingers when reading the license agreement <vbg>).

Best regards,

-SWM-



-----Original Message-----
From: Garret Mott [mailto:garret_atsign_automatesoftware_dot_com]
Posted At: Monday, October 17, 2005 5:32 PM
Posted To: product-direction
Conversation: Deploy Debugger
Subject: Re: Deploy Debugger

I (for some reason) saw Stephen's response under the VDF NG after this
one.

I would argue that "...install[ing] the Software Product on any computer
of
which You are
the primary user." would actually apply - if you install it for
debugging &
then uninstall/disable after you are done.

If I'm the only one using the computer while debugging, am I not the
(temporary) "primary" user? I'm not trying to split legal hairs - I'm
trying to further say how useful this would be & that it could be
considered
"OK" under this special circumstance.

Regards,

Garret

"Garret Mott" <garret_atsign_automatesoftware_dot_com> wrote in message
news:88Rnal10FHA.2052@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> David -
>
> I agree that this would be fantastic.
>
> In the "good old days" <vbg>, even though 2.3 etc. didn't have a
debugger,
> I could (& did) throw the development area in a folder (later deleted)

> with the source code & then add showlns, etc. to debug while at the
> client's.
>
> To be able to use the debugger this way would be lightyears ahead of
that!
>
> And - yes, I agree that what the client sees can certainly be
different
> than what I see in my development system.
>
> My 2 cents -
>
> Garret
>
>
> "David Martinko" <RedeemedSoftware@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7jeNwS10FHA.2056@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
>> OK, so I asked if we can deploy the debugger... and the answer is
NO...
>> it wasn't meant to work that way. So now I would like to ask... Can
you
>> make it that way?
>>
>> Now, I am not sure how a debugger really works and how it reads the
>> source files and all... But here's my thought:
>>
>> Add a cfg file for the debugger so it can be deployed with the
compiled
>> packages. The cfg will allow the developer to point to a directory
>> containing the compiled source (i.e. *.prn). On the client end, I
would
>> deploy VDF as C:\Program Files\Common Files\Visual Dataflex 11.1\Bin
>> The debugger would exist in the .\Bin directory... but it won't work
>> without the source. So if I found myself needing to debug the
program, I
>> could send the compiled source and place it in the .\Bin\Source. My
>> VDFBug.cfg would contain a path of "Path= .\Source" so it would know
>> where to locate the source. I open the VDFBug.exe and attach it to
the
>> program.... the rest is history.
>>
>> Why? you ask. Because sometimes the client results are not the same
as
>> the developer's. It would help to see what was happening on the
client
>> end causing the problem.
>>
>> Obviously, you wouldn't want to leave the compiled source on the
client
>> machine... but it would be one more tool available to developers. For

>> those who do a lot of version control, perhaps they could send the
source
>> with their program in a password protected zip file so it was there
when
>> they need it... at any rate, I would like to know who thinks they
would
>> use this feature if it was made available.
>>
>> comments?
>>
>> --
>> David Martinko
>> Redeemed Software
>> 248-535-7495
>> RedeemedSoftware(SHIFT+2)Hotmail(PERIOD)com
>> www.redeemedsoftware.com
>>
>>
>
>