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Raveen Ryan Sundram
8-Mar-2005, 08:48 PM
DAW,

I refer to the thread "Visual DataFlex Linux", dated 12-Jan-2004

Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
unit the next 5 years.

Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and far
superior - and thats all we need.

We are currently running (character-based) DataFlex 3.1 for Linux and we run
the application on a Linux server with a terminal emulator on the client's
side. So, the clients run standard Windows machines and use a terminal
emulator to run/view/use our linux-based system.

This approach reduces the chances of data-corruption and maitains
data-integrity, as the application runs on the server - even if there is a
connection lost, the dataflex database could be 'rolled-back'

Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a X
terminal emulator on the client's side.

So, there is a current and immediate need for VDF for Linux. Or at least a
Linux Compiler. Yes! The IDE could still run under Windows but the compiler
should have an option to Compile For Linux. That should be the first step I
guess.

And with Novell and Sun now steer-heading the development of Linux - we
should see mainstream linux desktop in the near future too (before 3 years)

The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
commercial softwares in the market. If the DAW were to introduce VDF for
Linux or at least a Linux Compiler, it would be the first high-level
development tool for Linux. And I foresee many developer would jump at a
chance to work with a proper business development tool such as VDF.

Food for thought.

--
Regards,
Raveen Ryan Sundram
Excellent Software Ltd

Garret Mott
8-Mar-2005, 09:12 PM
Raveen -

First, let me say I agree with you. I put a post up here (but is now in the
archive) that brought up some similar points - although not as well as you
have.

There were some replies that there may be issues re: DAW's relationship with
M$ if they were to do this.

However, I particularly agree with the "early bird gets the Linux market"
concept. DAC was there in the early DOS days & didn't manage to pull it off
(due to many things, including some out of DAC's control). My belief is
that this is a second chance for them.

Of course, all the "we're not creating a Linux port" talk might be a smoke
screen & it'll be released next month! <vbg>

Good to hear your thoughts -

Garret

"Raveen Ryan Sundram" <raveen@xls.co.nz> wrote in message
news:FeNsloEJFHA.1952@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> DAW,
>
> I refer to the thread "Visual DataFlex Linux", dated 12-Jan-2004
>
> Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
> Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
> unit the next 5 years.
>
> Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and far
> superior - and thats all we need.
>
> We are currently running (character-based) DataFlex 3.1 for Linux and we
> run the application on a Linux server with a terminal emulator on the
> client's side. So, the clients run standard Windows machines and use a
> terminal emulator to run/view/use our linux-based system.
>
> This approach reduces the chances of data-corruption and maitains
> data-integrity, as the application runs on the server - even if there is a
> connection lost, the dataflex database could be 'rolled-back'
>
> Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
> could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a X
> terminal emulator on the client's side.
>
> So, there is a current and immediate need for VDF for Linux. Or at least a
> Linux Compiler. Yes! The IDE could still run under Windows but the
> compiler should have an option to Compile For Linux. That should be the
> first step I guess.
>
> And with Novell and Sun now steer-heading the development of Linux - we
> should see mainstream linux desktop in the near future too (before 3
> years)
>
> The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
> commercial softwares in the market. If the DAW were to introduce VDF for
> Linux or at least a Linux Compiler, it would be the first high-level
> development tool for Linux. And I foresee many developer would jump at a
> chance to work with a proper business development tool such as VDF.
>
> Food for thought.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Raveen Ryan Sundram
> Excellent Software Ltd
>

Mark Powers
9-Mar-2005, 11:20 AM
Raveen:
Your right, I think we are very limited with only an MS choice. For us
die hard Netware fans that still see servers up and running for months
on end without problems, it's hard not to steer away from MS. But now
with Novell offering both kernels (native Netware and Linux), I think
that Linux has so much more potential. Unfortunately I don't think that
we'll ever get DAW to move in the ways and offer us an opportunity to go
this way.

Mark

Raveen Ryan Sundram wrote:
> DAW,
>
> I refer to the thread "Visual DataFlex Linux", dated 12-Jan-2004
>
> Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
> Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
> unit the next 5 years.
>
> Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and far
> superior - and thats all we need.
>
> We are currently running (character-based) DataFlex 3.1 for Linux and we run
> the application on a Linux server with a terminal emulator on the client's
> side. So, the clients run standard Windows machines and use a terminal
> emulator to run/view/use our linux-based system.
>
> This approach reduces the chances of data-corruption and maitains
> data-integrity, as the application runs on the server - even if there is a
> connection lost, the dataflex database could be 'rolled-back'
>
> Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
> could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a X
> terminal emulator on the client's side.
>
> So, there is a current and immediate need for VDF for Linux. Or at least a
> Linux Compiler. Yes! The IDE could still run under Windows but the compiler
> should have an option to Compile For Linux. That should be the first step I
> guess.
>
> And with Novell and Sun now steer-heading the development of Linux - we
> should see mainstream linux desktop in the near future too (before 3 years)
>
> The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
> commercial softwares in the market. If the DAW were to introduce VDF for
> Linux or at least a Linux Compiler, it would be the first high-level
> development tool for Linux. And I foresee many developer would jump at a
> chance to work with a proper business development tool such as VDF.
>
> Food for thought.
>

Anders Öhrt
10-Mar-2005, 01:50 AM
> Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
> Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
> unit the next 5 years.
>
> Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and far
> superior - and thats all we need.
>
> ...
>
> Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
> could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a X
> terminal emulator on the client's side.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say we only need a Linux
server, but to use the X client you would need a Linux desktop to run the
VDF application on, thus you need a native VDF port. And, since there is no
standard desktop for Linux, you are trapped.

Think Citrix, the client only need an ICA client, and that exists for Linux.
But the server running the applications need to be a real desktop, and Linux
is not ready here.


> The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
> commercial softwares in the market.

Moving to Linux can't be a goal in itself, there must be some other goal
like saving money. How would you do this? If you have a VDF application
which runs on both Windows and Linux, you save some money on the licenses.
But, you quickly lost this saving on support and maintenance which is where
the big cost is.


> If the DAW were to introduce VDF for Linux or at least a Linux Compiler,
> it would be the first high-level development tool for Linux.

There already are many "high-level" development tools for Linux, most for
Java, with IDEs that comparable with VDF studio.


> And I foresee many developer would jump at a chance to work with a proper
> business development tool such as VDF.

I think there would if there was a way to distribute VDF applications for
free, like a freely distributable single user license.

// Anders

Torkild =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ulv=F8y?= Resheim
10-Mar-2005, 06:37 AM
Anders Öhrt wrote:

>
>> Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
>> Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
>> unit the next 5 years.
>>
>> Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and
>> far superior - and thats all we need.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
>> could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a
>> X terminal emulator on the client's side.
>
> You are contradicting yourself here. First you say we only need a Linux
> server, but to use the X client you would need a Linux desktop to run the
No, there are X servers for Windows. However, I think VNC would be a better
"remote desktop" solution since you'd have clients for just about any
platform there is.

> VDF application on, thus you need a native VDF port. And, since there is
> no standard desktop for Linux, you are trapped.
Hmmm... who cares? Let the user choose the desktop. Programs can be executed
regardless of the destop used.

>
> Think Citrix, the client only need an ICA client, and that exists for
> Linux. But the server running the applications need to be a real desktop,
> and Linux is not ready here.
Really? Have you ever tried KDE? It is far superior to Windows. And yes, I
use both, about 50/50.

[snip]
--
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards ((
Torkild Ulvøy Resheim, Senior Systemutvikler / Software Engineer ))
Emma EDB AS, Trondheim, Norway. http://www.emmaedb.no |----|_
Private pages: http://resheim.no - "Any sufficiently advanced | | )
bug is indistinguishable from a feature." |____|'

Torkild =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ulv=F8y?= Resheim
10-Mar-2005, 06:42 AM
Mark Powers wrote:

> Raveen:
> Your right, I think we are very limited with only an MS choice. For us
> die hard Netware fans that still see servers up and running for months
> on end without problems, it's hard not to steer away from MS. But now
> with Novell offering both kernels (native Netware and Linux), I think
> that Linux has so much more potential. Unfortunately I don't think that
> we'll ever get DAW to move in the ways and offer us an opportunity to go
> this way.

We have one fairly heavy used Oracle server running under an ancient version
of RedHat. About every two years one log file gets too big and needs to be
deleted. Inbetween this all services are up and running and there are no
restarts. However, another engineer in my dept. wrote a cron job to delete
the log file automatically so now I don't get the excuse to brag about this
server too often ;-)

[snip]
--
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards ((
Torkild Ulvøy Resheim, Senior Systemutvikler / Software Engineer ))
Emma EDB AS, Trondheim, Norway. http://www.emmaedb.no |----|_
Private pages: http://resheim.no - "Any sufficiently advanced | | )
bug is indistinguishable from a feature." |____|'

Anders Öhrt
10-Mar-2005, 07:24 AM
> No, there are X servers for Windows.

You mean running X servers on the clients, and connecting to a Linux X
server where the application runs?


> However, I think VNC would be a better
> "remote desktop" solution since you'd have clients for just about any
> platform there is.

But VNC is sluggish even on high bandwidth connections. TightVNC improves
this, but RD/ICA is far superior since they plug in to the desktop and sends
updates as native widgets (combo's, drop down's, etc), which VNC (and many
other, like PcAnywhere) sends everything as graphics.


> Really? Have you ever tried KDE? It is far superior to Windows. And yes, I
> use both, about 50/50.

I've tried Gnome, KDE, and lots of other systems to, all of which I would
find usability issues with within 5 minutes of running. I've also tried most
major distributions and none of them had the ease of use that windows has.
You can often fix this by configuring, but this is just what keeps linux of
the desktop. This should be good out of the box, which it isn't. And how you
configure something is different for each system.

Since about 2000, every year has been proclaimed "the year of linux on the
desktop", but it will still take a major pull by a major corporation (like
Novell with SuSE) for this to _really_ happen.

// Anders

Anders Öhrt
10-Mar-2005, 07:26 AM
By the way, you skipped what I thought was the most important part:

Moving to Linux can't be a goal in itself, there must be some other goal
like saving money. How would you do this? If you have a VDF application
which runs on both Windows and Linux, you save some money on the licenses.
But, you quickly lost this saving on support and maintenance which is where
the big cost is.

// Anders

Torkild =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ulv=F8y?= Resheim
10-Mar-2005, 07:42 AM
Anders Öhrt wrote:

>
>> No, there are X servers for Windows.
>
> You mean running X servers on the clients, and connecting to a Linux X
> server where the application runs?
Yeah.

>
>
>> However, I think VNC would be a better
>> "remote desktop" solution since you'd have clients for just about any
>> platform there is.
>
> But VNC is sluggish even on high bandwidth connections. TightVNC improves
> this, but RD/ICA is far superior since they plug in to the desktop and
> sends updates as native widgets (combo's, drop down's, etc), which VNC
> (and many other, like PcAnywhere) sends everything as graphics.
TightVNC can be set up to consume very little bandwith but I agree, RDP/ICA
is better. For some Windows work I use rdesktop on GNU/Linux which is an
excellent RDP client.

>
>
>> Really? Have you ever tried KDE? It is far superior to Windows. And yes,
>> I use both, about 50/50.
>
> I've tried Gnome, KDE, and lots of other systems to, all of which I would
> find usability issues with within 5 minutes of running. I've also tried
> most major distributions and none of them had the ease of use that windows
I strongly disagree. In my opinion SuSE pro with KDE is far more usable than
any version of Windows released. However, I'm not your average office user.

> has. You can often fix this by configuring, but this is just what keeps
> linux of the desktop. This should be good out of the box, which it isn't.
> And how you configure something is different for each system.
>
> Since about 2000, every year has been proclaimed "the year of linux on the
> desktop", but it will still take a major pull by a major corporation (like
> Novell with SuSE) for this to _really_ happen.
To be honest, I don't really care if 10-20-30 or 80% of users use GNU/Linux
or not. What is important is that you have a choice when picking a
server/desktop solution. Microsoft seems to prefer the opposite.

>
> // Anders

--
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards ((
Torkild Ulvøy Resheim, Senior Systemutvikler / Software Engineer ))
Emma EDB AS, Trondheim, Norway. http://www.emmaedb.no |----|_
Private pages: http://resheim.no - "Any sufficiently advanced | | )
bug is indistinguishable from a feature." |____|'

wila
10-Mar-2005, 08:07 AM
Anders,

Anders Öhrt wrote:
[snip]
> Think Citrix, the client only need an ICA client, and that exists for Linux.
> But the server running the applications need to be a real desktop, and Linux
> is not ready here.
[WvA] I agree with Knut.

Linux nowadays is more ready as a desktop imho as windows. Thanks to GTK
there are also alot of applications that run on most *nix desktops.
My personal favorite desktop is gnome, but i also use KDE and xfce who
are both fantastic desktops. It is no problem to run a gnome application
on a KDE desktop or the other way around.

I use both windows and *nix based desktops all the time and personally i
think that the *nix desktops are significantly easier to use and maintain.
Even the type of office applications are competitive and there's usually
nothing i have to switch over to windows for.
Ok ok, for developing VDF applications i use windows.

>
>>The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
>>commercial softwares in the market.

[WvA] Not as much maybe, definately not as many games.
But there's an enormous archive of applications ready for *nix and this
is still quickly growing.
There's more commercial software available for linux as most people think.

> Moving to Linux can't be a goal in itself, there must be some other goal
> like saving money. How would you do this? If you have a VDF application
> which runs on both Windows and Linux, you save some money on the licenses.
> But, you quickly lost this saving on support and maintenance which is where
> the big cost is.

[WvA] I disagree, it is always the windows boxes eating up my
maintenance time. *nix just works. Of course having to support both
platforms will always take more time as supporting just one of them.

I also don't understand why it would save money on licenses, if
VDF4linux would ever become a reality then it will cost you the same on
licenses.

Besides all this, there will not be a VDF for linux product built by DAW
as it will simply be too much work.

If DAW would start by a linux product that supports external_function
type of calls, then we developers would at least be able to hook up some
UI without having to jump thru hoops first.

Or even if they would bring the cm product closer to the functionality
in VDF (supporting DDO's and things like that, not even talking about
UI, arrays and structs) it would make a big difference.
Right now the product is dead as there haven't been updates to console
mode dataflex in the last few years.

--
Wil

Anders Öhrt
10-Mar-2005, 09:55 AM
> In my opinion SuSE pro with KDE is far more usable than
> any version of Windows released. However, I'm not your average office
> user.

Well, that is the point, right? We are writing applications, and these
applications will mostly we used by average office users, not hardcore
computer geeks. =)


> To be honest, I don't really care if 10-20-30 or 80% of users use
> GNU/Linux
> or not. What is important is that you have a choice when picking a
> server/desktop solution. Microsoft seems to prefer the opposite.

Since MS is a business, they are trying to make money. I'm writing VDF code
to make money too. I don't like MS' politics but I'm a developer, not a
politician. I don't think DAW should get into the Linux business for
political reasons, they should get into the Linux business for monetary
reasons and right now I can't see any.

// Anders

Oliver T. Nelson
10-Mar-2005, 10:06 AM
Well,

I don't know about VDF for Linux, but atleast they should get their foot in the
door and start with a Webapp that will work with apache on windows. Then
release Webapp for Linux.

OLIVER

Raveen Ryan Sundram wrote:
> DAW,
>
> I refer to the thread "Visual DataFlex Linux", dated 12-Jan-2004
>
> Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
> Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
> unit the next 5 years.
>
> Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and far
> superior - and thats all we need.
>
> We are currently running (character-based) DataFlex 3.1 for Linux and we run
> the application on a Linux server with a terminal emulator on the client's
> side. So, the clients run standard Windows machines and use a terminal
> emulator to run/view/use our linux-based system.
>
> This approach reduces the chances of data-corruption and maitains
> data-integrity, as the application runs on the server - even if there is a
> connection lost, the dataflex database could be 'rolled-back'
>
> Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
> could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a X
> terminal emulator on the client's side.
>
> So, there is a current and immediate need for VDF for Linux. Or at least a
> Linux Compiler. Yes! The IDE could still run under Windows but the compiler
> should have an option to Compile For Linux. That should be the first step I
> guess.
>
> And with Novell and Sun now steer-heading the development of Linux - we
> should see mainstream linux desktop in the near future too (before 3 years)
>
> The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
> commercial softwares in the market. If the DAW were to introduce VDF for
> Linux or at least a Linux Compiler, it would be the first high-level
> development tool for Linux. And I foresee many developer would jump at a
> chance to work with a proper business development tool such as VDF.
>
> Food for thought.
>

Raveen Ryan Sundram
10-Mar-2005, 04:57 PM
>> Moving to Linux can't be a goal in itself, there must be some other goal
>> like saving money. How would you do this? If you have a VDF application
>> which runs on both Windows and Linux, you save some money on the
>> licenses. But, you quickly lost this saving on support and maintenance
>> which is where the big cost is.
>
> [WvA] I disagree, it is always the windows boxes eating up my maintenance
> time. *nix just works. Of course having to support both platforms will
> always take more time as supporting just one of them.

[RRS] I agree with WvA, we are currently maintaning 2-runtimes for our
character based appplication. We have Linux and Windows Console Mode (CM)
users, but only 1 set of source-files. The compiled FLX files run perfectly
on both OS envinroments (DF31) [just need to be aware and check the SYSCONF
variables]

We've found that we spend less time supporting and maitaining the Linux
boxes than Windows. And we having been moving our client from Windows to
Linux servers. Hence, we can spend/invest more time in development,
marketing and product enhanement.

> Besides all this, there will not be a VDF for linux product built by DAW
> as it will simply be too much work.

[RRS] I don't fully agree with this statement. With new developments like
the mono-project (www.mono-project.com) and others in the pipe-line - DAW
could have a single source for VDF and simply recompile it for Linux or
Windows. So, DAW will or should be maintaining a single set of source.

I know its easier said than done - so, for the near future I'm suggesting
that DAW come-up with a Linux Compiler first (DFCOMP for Linux). And see how
(business) viable the compiler is and then decide whether it wants to port
the entire VDF/IDE to linux.

Regards,
Raveen Ryan Sundram
Excellent Software Ltd

wila
11-Mar-2005, 03:16 AM
Raveen,

Raveen Ryan Sundram wrote:
>>Besides all this, there will not be a VDF for linux product built by DAW
>>as it will simply be too much work.
>
> [RRS] I don't fully agree with this statement. With new developments like
> the mono-project (www.mono-project.com) and others in the pipe-line - DAW
> could have a single source for VDF and simply recompile it for Linux or
> Windows. So, DAW will or should be maintaining a single set of source.

[WvA] But that's not true native linux support, you are talking about
..NET support for VDF. For this i'll now paraphrase myself (as i'm rather
lazy as tired) from a post "Multithreading and other stuff" dd 06/18/2004

<quote>
My worries are more concerning in what happens with VDF as long as there
are no clear plans to support the .NET platform (webservices help, but
it's not enough) on the long run. Win32 isn't there to stay forever and
we don't want VDF to be the last language in .NET either. Go figure,
even fortran is available for .NET.

From what i hear around me, this is one of the main reasons why people
are considering to abandon VDF for something else.
There are no long term plans with VDF (of course there are, but we don't
know them), there is no crossplatform VDF either, going .NET would in
fact give us a crossplatform VDF too (the mono project).
</quote>

>
> I know its easier said than done - so, for the near future I'm suggesting
> that DAW come-up with a Linux Compiler first (DFCOMP for Linux). And see how
> (business) viable the compiler is and then decide whether it wants to port
> the entire VDF/IDE to linux.

[WvA] A .NET compiler might be a lot of work, but a compiler for linux
we already have today. The biggest problem with the product is that it
appears to be dead in the water. I don't see any developer starting new
projects with DF4Linux because of this reason alone.
For sure it keeps me away from spending more time on the linux product.

--
Wil

>
> Regards,
> Raveen Ryan Sundram
> Excellent Software Ltd
>
>
>

Garret Mott
14-Jun-2005, 06:32 PM
Hi all -

An interesting piece. Don't know any details, but I sure find that it
creates new questions for me:

http://www.mainsoft.com/solutions/isv.aspx

Anyone out there know more?

Garret

"Raveen Ryan Sundram" <raveen@xls.co.nz> wrote in message
news:FeNsloEJFHA.1952@dacmail.dataaccess.com...
> DAW,
>
> I refer to the thread "Visual DataFlex Linux", dated 12-Jan-2004
>
> Most of the replies suggested that VDF programs would run natively on the
> Linux-Desktop and that Linux-Desktops will not be mainstream for at least
> unit the next 5 years.
>
> Well, that may be true but as a server linux is already mainstream and far
> superior - and thats all we need.
>
> We are currently running (character-based) DataFlex 3.1 for Linux and we
> run the application on a Linux server with a terminal emulator on the
> client's side. So, the clients run standard Windows machines and use a
> terminal emulator to run/view/use our linux-based system.
>
> This approach reduces the chances of data-corruption and maitains
> data-integrity, as the application runs on the server - even if there is a
> connection lost, the dataflex database could be 'rolled-back'
>
> Therefore, if there is a GUI DataFlex for Linux a.k.a. VDF for Linux - we
> could apply the same method. Run the application on a Linux server via a X
> terminal emulator on the client's side.
>
> So, there is a current and immediate need for VDF for Linux. Or at least a
> Linux Compiler. Yes! The IDE could still run under Windows but the
> compiler should have an option to Compile For Linux. That should be the
> first step I guess.
>
> And with Novell and Sun now steer-heading the development of Linux - we
> should see mainstream linux desktop in the near future too (before 3
> years)
>
> The reason why people are not moving to Linux Desktop ? There isn't much
> commercial softwares in the market. If the DAW were to introduce VDF for
> Linux or at least a Linux Compiler, it would be the first high-level
> development tool for Linux. And I foresee many developer would jump at a
> chance to work with a proper business development tool such as VDF.
>
> Food for thought.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Raveen Ryan Sundram
> Excellent Software Ltd
>